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Cossins
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 24, 2004 10:38 am    Post subject: GoboGentoo Reply with quote

Hi there!
I am compiling a new kernel right now with the GoboLinux Hide patch that makes it possible to hide files without renaming them (e.g. hiding files without giving them an initial dot). This patch makes it possible to utilize a much more user-friendly filesystem layout, or at least make the filesystem look prettier... :-)

I like pretty things, so I've begun the experiment: Converting my Gentoo-style filesystem into a Gobo-style filesystem, with hidden symlinks all over the place to maintain compatibility.

If more people than just me are interested in making such a layout possible and easy to use in Gentoo, it would be possible to make patches for Portage (emerge) so that it would install programs and libraries the true Gobo way (like installing X-Chat in /Programs/XChat/ and KDE in /Programs/KDE/).

Note: This thread is not meant to be a discussion about whether the Gobo way is the right way, that has been discussed before. This is only for those who actually like the new way.

- Simon
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 24, 2004 12:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't have time for this, but please do report back on your success/failures
such a file system is really needed to get linux to the mainstream, whilst I don't mind the unix fs structure my mother begs to differ lol
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 24, 2004 1:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That would be something I like to see, I can't code though, but if you try it, I'd be glad to test it out.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 24, 2004 4:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sounds interesting. Does Gobo have more info on how it works from a user perspective?
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2005 2:10 pm    Post subject: Anything started? Reply with quote

Have you started implementing something? Maybe I could help a little bit, though I'm not yet an expert in programming Python. Read some articles about GoboLinux today and I think this would pull a lot of Windows users. To me, getting used to the LFS was and still is one of the greatest problems in Linux!
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2005 8:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry to chill the moment, but I doubt any major change from LFHS anytime soon, and the worst way to make people feel good with it is to introduce an emulating sublayer. How is the UNIX filesystem more "difficult" than the one in Windows?
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2005 8:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

etnoy wrote:
Sorry to chill the moment, but I doubt any major change from LFHS anytime soon, and the worst way to make people feel good with it is to introduce an emulating sublayer. How is the UNIX filesystem more "difficult" than the one in Windows?

i wouldnt say its more difficult, but having it layed out as gobo is would be more intuitive for the average user
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2005 11:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's just the other way round, the LFS is emulated by the new layout. And the layout as is is a major reason for many novices to give up Linux (my dad being one of them). Lets say, if you just had the opportunity to change the names of the folders: /etc would become /settings, /bin would become /binaries... That already would be a great advantage. GoboLinux goes one step further and separates everything like it should be: Every program in its own directory and if you really need for example all binaries in one place, you still have your /bin and /sbin and /usr/bin and /usr/sbin. I know Gentoo has a great package system, that let's you handle packages easily, but I don't want to know, how many work (and pain in the ass) was involved in that. This is like a lot of programming around a bug that should long have been fixed by a major refactoring.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 19, 2005 3:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i really wouldnt call it a "bug" (i know it wasnt meant literally)
as i said before, the linux directory structure isnt necessarily better or worse than any other
but if its windows users we are trying to convert, then of course the more intuitive structure is better, outside of that, whos to say
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 19, 2005 8:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is some food for the mind:
What would you say about AppDirs?
And what about ROX DE that is built arround the concept of AppDirs and ZeroInstall (please read to the end of the page, very important) in order to get those nice AppDirs :-)


Last edited by planetsheinker on Mon Aug 22, 2005 11:02 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 19, 2005 3:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why do some Linux users have a preoccupation with converting Windows users to Linux? Linux is a different OS. Just because it can run on the same hardware as Windows doesn't mean it's a free replacement for Windows and that Windows users should switch. Linux is an alternative for those who choose to use it. It'll remain out of reach for many until there are more systems with Linux pre-installed. Most Windows users I know couldn't install Windows if they had to and only use it because it was already on their system. That's also why I know so many people who still use Windows 98 and ME.

You don't hear people complaining to Apple that Mac OS X doesn't look like Windows or work like Windows. People who choose to move to Apple's machines know they're moving to a completely different system. That's just the same for Linux. Again, it might run on the same hardware as Windows but that doesn't mean it has to be the same.

Apple have done a great job of using the GUI to hide the *nix parts of the system from the user (based on the few times I've been able to use a Mac). I believe the goal should be the same for Linux. Let Mandrake, SuSE and Red Hat (and in some cases KDE and Gnome) worry about hiding the FSH from the end users who don't want to see it. That's something that MS haven't really achieved yet either.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 19, 2005 6:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i have a preoccupation with converting windows users for two primary reasons:
first to benefit them by helping them find a better operating system
and second because i (like many others) would like to see linux become more mainstream, and to do this we need more users
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 19, 2005 7:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

some people are better off pointing and clicking in windows than learning about unix like OS. Some people dont want to learn they just want to chat and read email maybe play a few games write something in a word editor.

Linux is so much more a community where we learn more about the computer and how it works how to work it together than just using it. Users like me using a Unix like OS for the past 10 years chose to maybe not to find a replacement for windows but to learn about the other options out there.

At the same time 10 years ago I would have never thought that I would replace windows. This little hackers toy from so long ago has developed to become a replacement. I cant really say that Linux is getting better or not than windows but a few years ago It really couldnt compare to windows as a desktop environment but its been catching up and may someday surpass windows.

I dont want to see Linux Distros making changes to try to look like windows. Its just different and we can and have lived with that.

A couple years ago Linux was just a hobby to some people and now with people like me its a career. Linux has become slowly more user friendly every year.

look at the Wine Project a few years ago you could get simple programs to work without direct rendering, with massive rewriting and creating of custom config files. Now I just type emerge cedega && cedega setup.exe.

I have amazing confidence and pride in the linux community trying to make things better quicker and easier. Someday it may be even more userfriendly than windows. But its not right now.

Also realize that as user friendly as we would like to see Linux become remember the theme of Gentoo which is choices. As much as i like watching it become more user friendly I enjoy being able to customize things to tweak. its a cold day outside I have the day off I like to fiddle with this and that. And I think you have to balance automation, functionality, and custimization.

Its all about freedom of information, I'd like to think that we are the pioneers of whats going to be a movement ots all about freedom, freedom of digital information interchange. We have taken the internet out of the hands of the government out of the hands of mega corporations and have proved that we can get together and play rough with the big guys.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 19, 2005 8:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd like to stress up front that my comments in this post are based on my experiences and opinions.

MrApples wrote:
i have a preoccupation with converting windows users for two primary reasons:
first to benefit them by helping them find a better operating system


A lot of them don't care what OS they use. Some of them don't even know what OS they're using. I've tried telling people the many reasons that Linux would be better for them until I'm blue in the face. They either don't (or won't) listen or don't (or won't) understand.

Some people think that changing OS is too much hassle and if I do persuade them to try Linux as a dual-boot system they rarely, if ever, boot Linux because they feel more comfortable with Windows and don't have the urge to learn a new OS.

If they do make an effort to try Linux then I get the hassle of the support phone calls. With some people that can rapidly become tedious. Some of these people either come to the conclusion that Linux is too much effort and therefore crap or slowly stop using it.

And believe it or not there are people who do actually like Windows despite everything and resent being told that they should use Linux.

I've learnt the hard way that the wisest course of action is to leave people to make up their own minds. We might think that they're misinformed (or even stupid) but they just can't see it and a lot of them won't the way things are.

MrApples wrote:
and second because i (like many others) would like to see linux become more mainstream, and to do this we need more users


I think the way to get more users is to target businesses and get them to run Linux as a desktop OS. It's very common for Windows users to use the excuse that they want the same OS at home as they have in the office.

Linux still has shortcomings that prevent the average Joe from being comfortable with it. You only have to look at the Usenet groups to see this.

This won't affect businesses so much if they have a good IT dept. Everything will just work when the machine hits the user's desk because the IT people will have seen to it. If there are problems the IT dept. is only a call away.

For the home user these shortcomings need to be addressed by the distros and WMs/DEs aimed at newbies. I don't mean that they should copy Windows in any way. Everything should work with a minimum of fuss. Pre-installing Linux and persuading the average Joe to buy these machines can also help with this.

If Linux is meant to become a more mainstream OS it will be because of the hard work by the open source community making distros that businesses want and the average Joe can use and because of Microsoft's ever more freedom restrictive licenses and policies and poor security record. It won't be because we take every opportunity to try to persuade home users to switch.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

andyfraser33 wrote:
A lot of them don't care what OS they use. Some of them don't even know what OS they're using. I've tried telling people the many reasons that Linux would be better for them until I'm blue in the face. They either don't (or won't) listen or don't (or won't) understand.


unless im talking to some windows zealot, usually have quite a lot of success in converting people
its hard to say why you have not, but the way i do it, i encourage them to call me whenever they need anything, and that seems to convince them

andyfraser33 wrote:

I think the way to get more users is to target businesses and get them to run Linux as a desktop OS. It's very common for Windows users to use the excuse that they want the same OS at home as they have in the office.


this is true, but i dont see myself walking up to a ceo and asking them to convert all of their desktops to a non-mainstream operating system
i think it is much more practical to approach users, and try to affect a change that way

andyfraser33 wrote:

If Linux is meant to become a more mainstream OS it will be because of the hard work by the open source community making distros that businesses want and the average Joe can use


that is exactly what gobo is doing, and exactly why i advocate for the use of the gobo file structure...
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 19, 2005 11:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MrApples wrote:
unless im talking to some windows zealot, usually have quite a lot of success in converting people


A Windows zealot? That's something I've never been. I'm not a Linux zealot either. If someone's happy with Windows I see no reason to potentially cause them (and me by extension) any hassle.

MrApples wrote:
its hard to say why you have not, but the way i do it, i encourage them to call me whenever they need anything, and that seems to convince them


That's the difference. I don't want people calling me all the time. In the past I've had people call me at all hours. I work in IT and have better things to do with my time in the evening than sort out other peoples IT problems over the phone. My life isn't IT 24/7.

I don't know why you have more luck. All I can think of is that everyone I know who's not already running Linux doesn't care. They really don't.

MrApples wrote:
andyfraser33 wrote:

I think the way to get more users is to target businesses and get them to run Linux as a desktop OS. It's very common for Windows users to use the excuse that they want the same OS at home as they have in the office.


this is true, but i dont see myself walking up to a ceo and asking them to convert all of their desktops to a non-mainstream operating system
i think it is much more practical to approach users, and try to affect a change that way


You don't go up to the CEO. You sow the seed in the IT dept. I've had far more luck that way.

MrApples wrote:
andyfraser33 wrote:

If Linux is meant to become a more mainstream OS it will be because of the hard work by the open source community making distros that businesses want and the average Joe can use


that is exactly what gobo is doing, and exactly why i advocate for the use of the gobo file structure...


I'm talking about changes that mean the user never has see outside of $HOME. I'm talking about GUI tools for ex-Windows home users to use without them ever having to see /etc. Mandrake is getting close but it's not there yet. The same can be said about Webmin and other similar tools.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2005 12:06 am    Post subject: Back to the roots Reply with quote

People, could we please get back to the main topic of this chat? Everytimes when there is the slightest hint of making Linux use some of the good/bad/whatever features of Windows endless discussions start of whether or not this is good thriving into philosophy and further. This thread was meant to be a discussion if or not the GoboLinux filesystem layout can be implemented in Gentoo, which in itself would be (like the layout and idea or not) be a proof of how flexible Linux is!!!!!!!!
I know it's a good reason to start a good discussion but gets users that are looking for info on something distracted and annoyed (Sorry if I step on anybody's feet). Maybe a good solution in such cases might be starting a new thread and posting a link like Discussion of advantages disadvantages to keep each thread on topic and as short as possible (Some kind of thread modularization :wink: )
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2005 12:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MrApples wrote:
i have a preoccupation with converting windows users for two primary reasons:
first to benefit them by helping them find a better operating system
and second because i (like many others) would like to see linux become more mainstream, and to do this we need more users


You realize this is exactly the same reasoning that drives people to proselytize at your doorstep (e.g., Jehova's Witnesses), right? Most people just find that annoying.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2005 12:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

andyfraser33 wrote:
I'm talking about changes that mean the user never has see outside of $HOME. I'm talking about GUI tools for ex-Windows home users to use without them ever having to see /etc.


Something like that has already been done to UNIX. It's called OS X.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2005 1:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vann wrote:
andyfraser33 wrote:
I'm talking about changes that mean the user never has see outside of $HOME. I'm talking about GUI tools for ex-Windows home users to use without them ever having to see /etc.


Something like that has already been done to UNIX. It's called OS X.


I thought I at least hinted at that earlier. Oh well. :)

That's the sort of approach I advocate. Rather than change the Linux filesystem hierarchy, possibly making it more Windows-like, just hide it with a set of well written and user-friendly GUI apps. Only allow the user to see their $HOME. If someone really wants to see the whole thing they still can.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2005 1:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry, I only read your last post. I didn't really want to get involved in arguments about Linux-as-religion, or whatever else.

In any case, I don't see what's wrong with the normal dot-file approach. Theoretically I think an attribute is the proper place for this behavior to reside; after all, then there's no question that this file should be hidden. With dot-files it's just a matter of convention.

I don't know as if that merits changing how filesystems behave in such a fundamental way, since practically they are nearly identical.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2005 8:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If the people are too stupid to learn a different file structure layout then they should stay with windows.

Stupid users are a great source of computer problems, and I'd perfer to help out people with half a brain that are willing to learn, than a windows user with no brain who is unwilling to learn anything and expects things to be just like windows.

Dumbing down things like computers isn't good.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2005 10:56 am    Post subject: Another thread, please !!!!! Reply with quote

Could you please continue these discussions in another thread? Please ?!?
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2005 11:23 am    Post subject: Re: GoboGentoo Reply with quote

Cossins wrote:
Hi there!
I am compiling a new kernel right now with the GoboLinux Hide patch that makes it possible to hide files without renaming them (e.g. hiding files without giving them an initial dot). This patch makes it possible to utilize a much more user-friendly filesystem layout, or at least make the filesystem look prettier... :-)

I like pretty things, so I've begun the experiment: Converting my Gentoo-style filesystem into a Gobo-style filesystem, with hidden symlinks all over the place to maintain compatibility.

If more people than just me are interested in making such a layout possible and easy to use in Gentoo, it would be possible to make patches for Portage (emerge) so that it would install programs and libraries the true Gobo way (like installing X-Chat in /Programs/XChat/ and KDE in /Programs/KDE/).

Note: This thread is not meant to be a discussion about whether the Gobo way is the right way, that has been discussed before. This is only for those who actually like the new way.

- Simon

I have a question, lets say that these kind of patches for portage exist, lets say I have installed them, and lat say I am doing "emerge xchat", so as far as I understand the executable binery file will be installed to /Programs/xchat, right? And what about the rest of the files that got to do with xchat? Like icons, man pages, help files, graphics and etc? Would it be also installed to /Programs/xchat? If that is the case, then I would defenetly like to have these patch.
By the way, these kind of thing is allready exist, it's called AppDirs, se my post a few post's up :-)
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2005 2:28 pm    Post subject: Re: GoboGentoo Reply with quote

planetsheinker wrote:
Cossins wrote:
Hi there!
I am compiling a new kernel right now with the GoboLinux Hide patch that makes it possible to hide files without renaming them (e.g. hiding files without giving them an initial dot). This patch makes it possible to utilize a much more user-friendly filesystem layout, or at least make the filesystem look prettier... :-)

I like pretty things, so I've begun the experiment: Converting my Gentoo-style filesystem into a Gobo-style filesystem, with hidden symlinks all over the place to maintain compatibility.

If more people than just me are interested in making such a layout possible and easy to use in Gentoo, it would be possible to make patches for Portage (emerge) so that it would install programs and libraries the true Gobo way (like installing X-Chat in /Programs/XChat/ and KDE in /Programs/KDE/).

Note: This thread is not meant to be a discussion about whether the Gobo way is the right way, that has been discussed before. This is only for those who actually like the new way.

- Simon

I have a question, lets say that these kind of patches for portage exist, lets say I have installed them, and lat say I am doing "emerge xchat", so as far as I understand the executable binery file will be installed to /Programs/xchat, right? And what about the rest of the files that got to do with xchat? Like icons, man pages, help files, graphics and etc? Would it be also installed to /Programs/xchat? If that is the case, then I would defenetly like to have these patch.
By the way, these kind of thing is allready exist, it's called AppDirs, se my post a few post's up :-)


Yes, that is the way it works on GoboLinux. /Programs/appname/Libraries etc...

- Simon
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