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klasikahl
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 24, 2002 10:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[paranoid rant] with the US government's carnivore monitoring our emails and communications, sometimes they take it to the extreme. they monitor *all* traffic. no joke. [/rant]
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solatis
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 24, 2002 10:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

klasikahl: is that true?

Since I'm rather interrested in the carnivore project :P
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klasikahl
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 24, 2002 10:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i believe it is, i have heard reports of it, sounds like something our government would do, and i dont think there have been any statements made denying it (a tell tale sign of 'yes, it is happening').
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solatis
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 24, 2002 10:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

God bless "my" government isn't the USA :P
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rac
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 24, 2002 11:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This thread started in ibiblislow.org.
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gsfgf
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2002 1:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

solatis wrote:
God bless "my" government isn't the USA :P


lucky bastared.
Oh shit, i hope that doesn't get the FBI on me
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jondkent
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2002 9:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Land of the free, whoever told you that is your enemy" - Rage Against the Machine

That held true about the US 10 years ago, and even more so today. The stuff that got through after 9/11 is amazing for a country that is deluded enough to think they have democratic freedom. The democratic freedom of the US citizens gets less and less each day as it appears to be driven more by business that by anything else. Have fun.

Unfortunately the US paranoia seems to be making its way over to Europe as well with the latest proposals for ISP, mobile phone providers etc to keep logs on what their users are doing :(
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Spider
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2002 3:05 am    Post subject: machines said it right.. ."Albert Speer" Reply with quote

....
smell the ripe overripe budding America
a sweetfaced straightlaced pornographic actress
that's her draw -
no one can believe she'd appear in this smut
her face smiling perfect through innocent teeth
unaware of the debauchery beneath
smiling innocent through perfect teeth
unaware of the wolves running
wild in her streets
in the land of the free
....

.....and people wonder why I like this band? Machines of Loving Grace
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theneopro
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2002 3:27 am    Post subject: Like that is anything new Reply with quote

I rember just only a few years ago all network traffic went through Washington D.C. How odd you might say. Well yes it is true. If you ever did a traceroute back then you would see what i mean. There was even a special awhile ago in relation to this. And it looked really kewl to have been part of that pack whole sniffing job. Now you will find the packets will travel all over the place but still no logical path. Thats becaus they are using routers that sniff within the packets themselves. Then get logged for anaylis off site. Now thats there wave of the future...... And I dont blame America, just Major corporations, which are all over the world. They call it protection of thier investment. Now if you were in there shoes wouldnt you react the same?
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rac
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2002 3:54 am    Post subject: Re: Like that is anything new Reply with quote

theneopro wrote:
I rember just only a few years ago all network traffic went through Washington D.C. How odd you might say. Well yes it is true. If you ever did a traceroute back then you would see what i mean.

My tinfoil hat is as nicely creased and folded as anyone's, but this stretches my credibility. How many years ago are you talking about? I have had Internet access since 1990. During that time I have been physically located in Japan and California most of that time. I have never noticed packets being routed through DC unless they have been intended to go there. Do you have a credible source here? My urban-legend-o-meter is blinking frantically.
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phong
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2002 5:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Heck, as far back as at least 1994, maybe 93, I remember my packets bouncing around Willow Springs and then other major hubs, never DC unless the packets were destined for that vicinity.

Also, for carnivore to operate, special equipment must be installed at the ISP, and they must have a warrant (unless that new stupid thing passes attached to the Homeland Security bill, in which case, they just need the ISP's permission). I am also fairly certain that it does not contain any technology "discovered" in the vicinity of Groom Lake.

Activism is good, but too much hyperbole makes you easy to dismiss as just another raving mad conspiracy theorist.
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Matje
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2002 11:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

solatis wrote:
God bless "my" government isn't the USA :P

Your government isn't doing that good either :p
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pilla
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2002 1:33 am    Post subject: Re: Like that is anything new Reply with quote

Traceroute from Pittsburgh to Porto Alegre, Brazil. Washington, NY, Miami....
It goes through Washington when I traceroute to the UK (theregister.co.uk) . It does not pass there when I traceroute UC at Irvine.

Code:

 1  tnt.libcom.com (205.138.20.2)  103.361 ms  99.517 ms  97.044 ms
 2  lib-cw-router.libcom.com (205.138.18.1)  98.860 ms  94.693 ms  89.964 ms
 3  64.8.24.101 (64.8.24.101)  269.057 ms  281.909 ms  259.986 ms
 4  64.8.62.41 (64.8.62.41)  273.988 ms  263.918 ms  281.853 ms
 5  g1-02-00-00.r0.pit00.adelphiacom.net (66.109.11.133)  272.091 ms  283.952 ms  253.926 ms
 6  p3-01-00-00-n0.dca00.adelphiacom.net (66.109.0.73)  267.880 ms  296.023 ms  282.956 ms
 7  p3-00-00-00.r0.dca00.adelphiacom.net (66.109.0.142)  310.228 ms  247.959 ms  258.043 ms
 8  p3-00-00-00.p0.dca90.adelphiacom.net (66.109.6.150)  277.784 ms  275.844 ms *
 9  gigabitethernet1-0.ipcolo2.Washington1.Level3.net (63.215.136.209)  294.033 ms  288.046 ms  291.854 ms
10  ae0-55.mp1.Washington1.Level3.net (64.159.18.129)  295.987 ms  308.984 ms  734.875 ms
11  so-2-0-0.mp2.NewYork1.Level3.net (64.159.1.85)  297.046 ms  287.836 ms  303.898 ms
12  gigabitethernet5-2.core2.NewYork1.Level3.net (64.159.17.166)  314.016 ms  257.974 ms  219.968 ms
13  acr2.NewYork.cw.net (209.244.160.190)  196.060 ms  224.020 ms  211.876 ms
14  agr4-loopback.NewYork.cw.net (206.24.194.104)  193.944 ms  243.778 ms  290.009 ms
15  acr1-loopback.Miami.cw.net (208.172.98.61)  325.915 ms  337.782 ms  283.877 ms
16  embratel.Miami.cw.net (208.172.99.178)  371.974 ms  359.682 ms  379.924 ms
17  rs-atm103.bb3.rnp.br (200.143.254.217)  445.973 ms  464.837 ms  483.814 ms


rac wrote:
theneopro wrote:
I rember just only a few years ago all network traffic went through Washington D.C. How odd you might say. Well yes it is true. If you ever did a traceroute back then you would see what i mean.

My tinfoil hat is as nicely creased and folded as anyone's, but this stretches my credibility. How many years ago are you talking about? I have had Internet access since 1990. During that time I have been physically located in Japan and California most of that time. I have never noticed packets being routed through DC unless they have been intended to go there. Do you have a credible source here? My urban-legend-o-meter is blinking frantically.
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ebrostig
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2002 2:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have been on the net since 85.
I have had to use traceroute a lot in the early days to try to find bottlenecks, and I have never, never, seen anything close to what this poster was ranting about.

I rate his post in the same category as: "We never sendt people to the moon, it's all a hoax"

Erik
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arkane
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2002 4:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

How many people here realize that two of our major pipelines out of this country lie in the DC area (mae east) and in Cali (Mae West)?
It's the piering points that are a neutral zone so to speak.. interconnects the networks to talk together as the backbone. There are a couple of others, but those are the major ones. If anything happens to those two locations, we need to move fast to have international traffic going well again.

The routers that are in those locations are under lock-n-key, with cages holding each of them from the other, sort of like a demilitarized zone so to speak. It's too disorganized to have govt stuff in there, though they are working on putting "supercomputers" on the net to sniff out information and categorize it. (the infamous databasing they are talking about now is another step of it)

grrrr...
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pilla
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2002 2:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You may read this BBC article about the problems with concentration in a few backbones.
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bpkri
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2002 2:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For those of you interested:
Monitoring internet access with Carnivore is only the beginning. You should keep your eyes open on the "Total Awareness Information" program...

It's only logical: Since terror can only be countered if you have total information about what everyone does.... do I need to go on?

read 1984, look at what happened in USA and the whole world after sep. 11th last year, think again...

*sniff* :cry:
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pilla
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2002 3:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I gotta see that film "Minority Report". I think it is also related 8)

bpkri wrote:
For those of you interested:
Monitoring internet access with Carnivore is only the beginning. You should keep your eyes open on the "Total Awareness Information" program...

It's only logical: Since terror can only be countered if you have total information about what everyone does.... do I need to go on?

read 1984, look at what happened in USA and the whole world after sep. 11th last year, think again...

*sniff* :cry:
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KiTaSuMbA
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2002 5:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Adding some cents (more than two I'm afraid):
- The EU although displaying a more civil-rights-concerned face is definately not a liberty paradise. However there is an _official_ EU Commision Report on echelon and internet monitoring and sniffing in general. Said report strongly encourages just about everybody, world+dog, to use encryption on e-mail and internet transaction while also taking note of the anonymous proxies. Now I know this might sound as an old fashioned "where there is smoke, there is fire" but I find it rather difficult to believe the EU's official position on the matter is riding a hoax. Unfortunately the USA citizens silently accepted the illegality of encryption in e-mails under the WTC tragedy fear. Would you people let somedy read your paper mail, a love letter or whatever? Why then should the bastards be allowed to read the electronic counterpart of practically the same thing? The "honest people have nothing to hide" moto is plain stupidity. Remember, the very fact that you are the USA instead of a british colony was acheived through honest yet _illegal_ actions!
- The technology and know-how to get this is already present. No, there is no need to route everything through a Washington basement and tape-record it. All you need is access to the national routers. The newborn laws like the PATRIOT act actually make the job a lot easier as the police can gain direct access to ISP logs without warrant and any remaining ISPs embracing a delete-all, delete-soon policy are in a very delicate position. They are a business after all, they don't need the feds dragging them to court for not collaborating...
- That Europe is _still_ not embracing such activities is no reason to celebrate. If you go through a US-soil router - regardless of destination - there is every reason to believe you are sniffed: better cautious than sorry people! You think you are immune inside the EU? Remember that russian coder breaking adobe's ebook format story? Better think again next time you want to go to Linux World. If you make encryption a widely-used everyday-life habit while we still can, it will be a lot harder for the "grey suits" to make it illegal or picture it as a Bad Thing (TM) as they were able to do in the USA.
There IS a big brother and if you think 1984's one was an impossible fantasy thing you only make them happier. It was BS, not because it's impossible but because it was kiddy stuff, simplistic and ineffective. The real thing is/can be a lot more efficient plus nobody needs to know..
Dammit, in the old days there was a need for snitches - not anymore!
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rac
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2002 6:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

KiTaSuMbA wrote:
Unfortunately the USA citizens silently accepted the illegality of encryption in e-mails under the WTC tragedy fear.

Hang on a minute here. Can you show me where exactly "USA citizens silenty accepted the illegality of encryption in e-mails"? I didn't find one single mention of encryption in the EFF's analysis of the USA PATRIOT Act. Under what law is encrypting emails illegal in the USA?
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KiTaSuMbA
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2002 7:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Clarification for rac: I intend strong encryption which in my opinion is the only valid option. Isn't there a limit on the encryption bits? Also, I thought it was illegal to e-mail encrypted content from USA to another country... If I'm wrong, I'm sorry for "jumping the gun" but still I think this is the road your government is taking - wether it's already implemented (as I thought) or in the works.
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rac
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2002 7:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

KiTaSuMbA wrote:
I intend strong encryption which in my opinion is the only valid option. Isn't there a limit on the encryption bits?

Not that I know of, and certainly not for domestic use. It used to be that exporting software that implemented strong encryption was illegal from the US to another country. But this would have no practical effect on things like GnuPG, because the software could always be downloaded from a non-US source (even by people in the US). President Clinton relaxed these rules in 2000, so that no export license was required to export crypto software from the US to EU nations, Japan, Australia, New Zealand, and probably several other countries I'm forgetting. But all of this is about exporting the software. To my knowledge, it has never been illegal to use this software, nor to send the product of its use (encrypted email, for one) anywhere in the world, even when the US had silly export restrictions.
Quote:
Also, I thought it was illegal to e-mail encrypted content from USA to another country... If I'm wrong, I'm sorry for "jumping the gun" but still I think this is the road your government is taking - wether it's already implemented (as I thought) or in the works.

I sure hope this is not the case, or else I would no longer be able to do my job. I have to send encrypted emails back and forth from Japan to -fornia, as well as run ssh connections both ways also. I expect many corporations that do business in multiple countries have similar concerns. Since these big corporations are IMO the driving factor in American politics today, I feel pretty confident here. Please let me celebrate one of the times that I'm on the same side with them - such opportunities don't come along very often for me. ;)
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