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Roy
n00b
Joined: 15 Apr 2002
Posts: 55
Location: Australia
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 Posted: Mon May 13, 2002 2:03 am Post subject: Hardware detection |
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One of the hardest things when compiling a new kernel is making sure you have enabled all the correct drivers. This is made harder if you don't know what hardware you are actually using.
Would it be possible to use some hardware detection software to work out what your hardware is and have it generate a new kernel config file. Once done you could then modify the config file some more, but confident that you have enabled all the things that Have to be enabled. It would also make things a bit easier for newbies.
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sda
n00b
Joined: 05 May 2002
Posts: 18
Location: Toronto
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| Posted: Mon May 13, 2002 3:37 am Post subject: Re: Hardware detection |
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| Roy wrote: | One of the hardest things when compiling a new kernel is making sure you have enabled all the correct drivers. This is made harder if you don't know what hardware you are actually using.
Would it be possible to use some hardware detection software to work out what your hardware is and have it generate a new kernel config file. Once done you could then modify the config file some more, but confident that you have enabled all the things that Have to be enabled. It would also make things a bit easier for newbies. |
IMHO that wouldn't be a good thing, if we want to make it easier for newbies than what difference are we from Mandrake? The whole point is that this is a learning curve - gentoo has raised the bar just enough for us to actually learn something about Linux.
If one wants "ease of use" to install, use Mandrake or SuSE. Gentoo can't be everything to all people.
PS: the term "we" is applied to mean we the Gentoo user community, not Gentoo the developers. |
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Roy
n00b
Joined: 15 Apr 2002
Posts: 55
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Mon May 13, 2002 3:55 am Post subject: |
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I'm not saying this is just for newbies.
Have you ever tried to get a network card, or sound card working when you don't know what chipset it uses?
I'm not sure why gentoo users seem to automatically resist anything that may make things just a bit easier.
I am sure Gentoo was not created so people can learn all the ins and outs of linux. It was my impression that Gentoo was created as a small, lightweight, and fast distribution. It was created so y ou could build a system the way you wanted it. I don't think I have read anywhere (except on these forums) that gentoo is supposed to be a difficult distribution.
If you really want a distribution that you can truely learn all the ins and outs of a linux operating system then you should use LFS because really the emerge tool just makes things too easy.
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Jyrinx
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 03 May 2002
Posts: 92
Location: Carleton College - Northfield, MN
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| Posted: Mon May 13, 2002 10:03 am Post subject: |
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| Roy wrote: | | Have you ever tried to get a network card, or sound card working when you don't know what chipset it uses? |
I know what that's like; lspci is my savior. IIRC, though, the PCI database thingie (so lspci gives meaningful output, product names and all) isn't included in the ISOs, so I had to do a little trial and error ... how about including the PCI database (whatever the proper name is) in the rescue.gz image on the ISO?
Jyrinx
jyrinx@mindspring.com |
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klieber
Bodhisattva
Joined: 17 Apr 2002
Posts: 3657
Location: San Francisco, CA
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| Posted: Mon May 13, 2002 12:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Roy wrote: | | I'm not sure why gentoo users seem to automatically resist anything that may make things just a bit easier. |
That's a straw man argument. Gentoo users do not automatically resist anything that makes things easier. They resist anything that takes away from Gentoo's core focus.
| Roy wrote: | | It was my impression that Gentoo was created as a small, lightweight, and fast distribution. It was created so y ou could build a system the way you wanted it. |
I don't think too many people would disagree with that. However, getting hardware auto-detection to work reliably within those parameters is not a trivial undertaking. RedHat and Mandrake certainly haven't done it -- I'd say Windows hasn't even done it either. (unless you want to argue that any one of those distros is a 'small, lightweight, and fast distribution')
Think about how many different video cards there are in the world. Now figure out a way to write an auto-detection program that will not only recognize all those cards, but also compile all necessary kernel modules, optimize the driver code for your specific architecture (386, 486, etc.) and, oh, get it configured to work correctly with XFree86 unless you happen to be using framebuffer.
Now do that for all the NICs, sound cards, IDE controllers (including the RAID ones), SCSI controllers (including the RAID ones), etc.
Now, would you rather see the Gentoo developers focus on that, or focus on other aspects of Gentoo development. Personally, I'd like to see them focus on other aspects of Gentoo development, such as making portage better, creating new ebuild scripts, etc.
Not trying to bash your idea -- I think hardware auto-detection would be a great idea if implemented correctly and done within the design precepts of Gentoo. However, that is not a trivial undertaking and would likely result in the overall pace of development being drastically slowed.
--kurt
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Roy
n00b
Joined: 15 Apr 2002
Posts: 55
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Tue May 14, 2002 2:08 am Post subject: |
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I never said it should comile the drivers for you.
All I said was it could create a usable .config file for your kernel source.
It isn't something that has to be that complicated. It could use an online database that can be constatly added to, and fixed. The detection can then query the datbase with the hardware ID and find out what the correct driver is.
This isn't something that the gentoo developers have to do. As the decription of this forum says, the gentoo developers don't read this much. It could be another project that someone else can impliment. That is the real purpose of this forum.
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pjp
Administrator
Joined: 16 Apr 2002
Posts: 20067
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| Posted: Tue May 14, 2002 2:38 am Post subject: |
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| Roy wrote: | | It was my impression that Gentoo was created as a small, lightweight, and fast distribution. It was created so y ou could build a system the way you wanted it. |
I'd love to have a system the way I wanted it... with sound  . I have an old Creative ISA card that I cannot figure out. As much as I would like to see
a sound configuration tool, I'd rather see development elsewhere. Unless of course one of the bloated distros had a tool that could easily be brought
over. I'm far from a linux guru, but I've had no real issues other than sound. When I have, the forums had the answer  |
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klieber
Bodhisattva
Joined: 17 Apr 2002
Posts: 3657
Location: San Francisco, CA
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| Posted: Tue May 14, 2002 12:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Roy wrote: | | All I said was it could create a usable .config file for your kernel source. |
I don't get it -- how are you going to write something that detects your video card, NIC, sound card, RAID controller, IDE controller, SCSI controller, mobo chipset, CPU, etc. and NOT make it complicated?
--kurt
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proxy
Apprentice
Joined: 20 Apr 2002
Posts: 260
Location: Chantilly, VA
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| Posted: Tue May 14, 2002 2:54 pm Post subject: |
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well, I can understand both sides of the argument. It would definitely be no small task, so it will be complicated... but the question really is how complicated would it be? And is it worth it? I mean, a small utility to do a PCI probe and check results in an online database is a reasonable idea for a solution, but producing a viable .config file... not likely to work too well, there are simply too many factors.
Do I think it's worth it, not a chance. Too much effort to fix somthing that usually isnt a problem for the types of users gentoo attracts. I mean, gee, if you really arent sure what type of hardware you have, just do like redhat and build a whole bunch of modules, THAT is the beuty of gentoo, you make it what you want.
MY gentoo is very fast, very light, and has a minimal install process that gives me only what I need and only what I ask for.
What does your gentoo do for you? |
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Guest
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| Posted: Wed May 15, 2002 4:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Have you ever seen kbuild 2.5 and CML2? Try a google, this is exactly what this topic is about and more. |
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klieber
Bodhisattva
Joined: 17 Apr 2002
Posts: 3657
Location: San Francisco, CA
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| Posted: Wed May 15, 2002 4:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Anonymous wrote: | | Try a google, this is exactly what this topic is about and more. |
Sorry -- that's just plain wrong. kbuild is a replacement for the kernel build process -- the part of linux that actually builds (not configures) the kernel. This is not a user-facing app, except that users will not have to 'make dep' or 'make modules' any more. kbuild is of primary interest to developers.
CML2 is a replacement for the 'make config/make menuconfig/make xconfig' nonsense. It is not a hardware detection system.
Additionally, CML2 is scheduled to become part of the linux kernel somewhere in the 2.5.x release.
It is designed to make kernel configuration easier for newbies, but people still have to know what kind of hardware their computers are running.
--kurt
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Guest
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| Posted: Wed May 15, 2002 5:33 pm Post subject: |
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| I mentioned kbuild because it will greatly speed up compilation. Regarding the "hardware detection", if you take a look at http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/cml2/NEWS and search for autoconfig, then you'll probably notice it. I don't know how good it is, but it should detect what mice you have etc. |
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klieber
Bodhisattva
Joined: 17 Apr 2002
Posts: 3657
Location: San Francisco, CA
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| Posted: Wed May 15, 2002 5:39 pm Post subject: |
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I stand corrected -- CML2 has come a long way since I looked at it last. ESR states that it should "scope out modern PCI-based Intel boxes pretty completely now."
If it works as advertised, that's great. (at least until the PowerPC crowd starts complaining. )
So, looks like when 2.6 finally gets released, we should have some sort of hardware detection built in. That will go a long way towards making linux easier for the unwashed masses.
--kurt
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ProGuy
n00b
Joined: 14 Apr 2002
Posts: 17
Location: Denmark
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Andy
Guest
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| Posted: Wed May 22, 2002 11:58 am Post subject: |
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i fully agree with Jyrinx.
Methinks, adding the PCI-database into the ISO would be a good compromise. It enables a meaningful output of lspci and does not add any complexity for the developers of gentoo.
Greetz
Andy |
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