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Pigeon
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 24, 2002 10:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kanuslupus wrote:
I think the smell of diesel is more offensive, and should not be considered as an alternative. Fortunately, I don't think there's going to be any push to convert cars to diesel.

Diesel engines can burn damned near anything- Kerosene, motor oil, jet fuel, never heard of vegetable oil but it doesn't suprise me. Diesel fuel is like regular unleaded only more so- it's the cheapest, crappiest fuel you can buy. The reason it's called diesel fuel isn't because it's designed for use in diesel engines, but because diesel engines are the only engines that can burn it. Put regular unleaded or better yet, premium into a diesel and see how it smells.
kanuslupus wrote:
Both have extremely narrow wheels (to help with fuel consumption) which tend to "track" along grooves in the pavement. In a normal Civic, this is bad enough... I don't need it to be worse with narrower wheels.

I've never noticed this- though then again, I've never noticed it in any car, ever. (well, there was a metal drawbridge in my town that would do that even if you had monster truck wheels. But that doesn't count.)
kanuslupus wrote:
Road noise is also too high.

Considering that the engine is signifigantly quieter, (ie, it's only on half the time) and they're also the most aerodynamic cars on the road, it's actually not that bad. So you trade engine noise and airflow noise for tire noise.
gsfgf wrote:
y'all hybrids still burn the same amount of gas.

Not true. Bottom line is, hybrids can go 65+ miles on a single gallon of gas. My car can't even get close to that. Can yours?
gsfgf wrote:
Even electric cars use fossil fuel indirectly. When you rechrge them you're putting a strain on the coal powerplants that power your house.

Yes, but (a) we have a lot more coal, (b) coal is a lot cheaper, and (c) modern coal powerplants are far more efficient both as far as energy per pollution and energy per dollar are concerned.

Also, not all powerplants are fossil fuel based. Stick a couple solar panels on your roof (ok, more than a couple) and your electric car goes from being fossil fuel driven to solar powered. There are dozens of ways to generated electricity, and many of them are more ecologically and economically than the internal combustion engine in your car. (and no, I'm not saying electrical cars are ready for prime time.)

Hey- anyone know if Honda/Toyota has any plans to stick solar panels on the roofs/hoods of their cars to increase their milage in the near future? Or are solar panels too expensive/unreliable/heavy?
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lx
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2002 12:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

carlivar wrote:
Quote:
It's also a trademark of the US, being one of the most poluting countries in the world, to not care for nature if it stands in the way of wealth.

Really, could you show me some sources for your claim that the U.S. is one of the most polluting countries in the world? I would think Mexico is a lot worse, for instance.
.....


Some proof:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/2024265.stm
Quote:
The US alone accounted for 36.1% of greenhouse emissions in 1990. But the world's biggest polluter opted out of the pact last year, arguing that its economic interests would be threatened.


Besides don't you think the USA has much more money and prosperity then for example Mexico, with power comes responsibility........

some further reading:
http://www.vexen.co.uk/USA/pollution.html

carlivar wrote:
Let me explain to you how the U.S. works. Here in the U.S. we believe in "freedom" (at least to an extent more than almost anywhere else). Rather than force our citizens to conserve fuel by outrageously taxing it, we give people the choice to drive a fuel-efficient car or a gas guzzler. If a person feels strongly against a dependence on oil, they can drive an economy car or whatever, plus persuade others to do the same. This is social pressure, rather than political force, which I believe is a better system.

Carl

Yeah in your dreams, come on, you don't believe it yourself do you?

And futhermore what's the benefit of a fuel hungry car over a fuel efficient car, if you want to drive it you also pay some extra tax, cause you polute more, that's what I would call fair. Although I hate tax and having to spent much more on fuel, I'm sure it helps too some extend, social pressure in a world of individualists (every one for himself),......

Cya lX.
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pjp
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2002 12:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

carlivar wrote:
Actually diesel exhaust smells better than anything else if you burn different fuel than standard diesel fuel. Such as vegetable oil, or even used grease from McDonald's.
Uhm, yeah, no thanks. I read about this last year I think. I encourage the research, but I don't want to smell french fries everywhere either. Bad enough already with a fast-food "restaurants" at every corner.
Quote:
By the way, I have a 2002 VW Jetta TDI (turbodiesel) wagon. ... It also doesn't smell much because it's rather small.
Interesting... I was going to ask how the smell was nowdays (if it had improved). When I'm ready to buy a car, I was going to take a look at some diesel offerings. VW is the only one I'm certain that offer diesel. They're proud of their cars too (as in expensive).
Quote:
Here's the problem with hybrid cars so far: they are ugly as sin. ... I think that's one of the main reasons you don't see more people interested in the Prius and such.
As I mentioned earlier, Honda has a Civic Hybrid that looks like a normal car. Granted, its still a Civic. As for the Prius... have you seen the Echo? That is a "normal" car and it is more ugly than the Prius. Lots of people own Echos (not to mention numerous other inexpensive cars that are usually an eyesore).


Pigeon wrote:
never heard of vegetable oil but it doesn't suprise me.
If I recall, some college along the West coast came up with it.
Quote:
Diesel fuel is like regular unleaded only more so- it's the cheapest, crappiest fuel you can buy.
Normally, I see it more expensive than low-grade unleaded. Diesel seems priced closer to mid-grade (not that I follow prices of it much).
Quote:
Put regular unleaded or better yet, premium into a diesel and see how it smells.
I don't claim to know much about engines... (serious question) what is the point of diesel fuel if it isn't necessary? Do diesel engines run better with it?
Quote:
I've never noticed this- though then again, I've never noticed it in any car, ever.
I'll admit, it may not be common yet, but there's a highway near where I live that has grooves in the road that parallel traffic. I've noticed it in my '92 3-door Civic, a '97 4-door civic, a Subaru something-or-other, and I'm sure it would be worse in a car which had narrower tires. From what I've heard, the grooves are weather related. May not affect many people (or everybody eventually if they take it nationally).
Quote:
Considering that the engine is signifigantly quieter, (ie, it's only on half the time) and they're also the most aerodynamic cars on the road, it's actually not that bad.
Unless I've misunderstood what I've read, the engine is on all the time during highway driving. Are they really the most aerodynamic? The Prius doesn't look like its been near a windtunnel, let alone be one of the most aerodynamic.
Quote:
So you trade engine noise and airflow noise for tire noise.
Cabin noise is one of my top factors for my next vehicle purchase, I don't care what causes the noise. If the engine does run on the highway the whole time, then I suspect the noise would be increased. I could be wrong, though I'm fairly certain the noise won't be any better than other non-hybrid cars in their class.
Quote:
Hey- anyone know if Honda/Toyota has any plans to stick solar panels on the roofs/hoods of their cars to increase their milage in the near future? Or are solar panels too expensive/unreliable/heavy?
I haven't heard anything. I'm guessing solar-cells aren't effecient enough to be useful to a normal car for the expense they'd add. I did read about a German group (I think) that had made some major progress in solar-cell efficiency though.


lx wrote:
Quote:
The US alone accounted for 36.1% of greenhouse emissions in 1990. But the world's biggest polluter opted out of the pact last year, arguing that its economic interests would be threatened.
How much industry, population and other contributing factors does the US have compared to others? 36% in and of itself is irrelevant. Incomplete statistics such as this are only useful when tryig to make a biased point (that is usually inaccurate). Typical and to be expected I suppose as most media are liberally biased.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2002 1:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Let's say that the USA have about 350 million inhabitants in a 6 billion inhabitants world.
Thus, about 17% of Earth inhabitants account for 35% o all greenhouse emissions.

kanuslupus wrote:

lx wrote:
Quote:
The US alone accounted for 36.1% of greenhouse emissions in 1990. But the world's biggest polluter opted out of the pact last year, arguing that its economic interests would be threatened.
How much industry, population and other contributing factors does the US have compared to others? 36% in and of itself is irrelevant. Incomplete statistics such as this are only useful when tryig to make a biased point (that is usually inaccurate). Typical and to be expected I suppose as most media are liberally biased.
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pjp
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2002 3:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Let's say" is quite far from fact. A region in Africa without industry is irrelevant. How does the US compare to other nations. How does the US compare to the EU? Japan, China, Australia etc. What are the numbers of actual industry? You can't compare the US to a country that has one factory (an exaggeration to make a point).
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2002 3:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, where is it wrong? Don't the USA have 350 million inhabitants, don't the world has about 6 billion, or the 35% is wrong? 8)

If some country has more factories and dumps more waste than others, why shouldn't they take the responsability for it? They are making money with their production, they can spend part of this money in better ways to dispose waste and avoid pollution. Not that Japan, EU, or other countries shouldn't do the same.

I think that every country should be aware of this problem and take the correct measures. Underdeveloped countries will have more difficult, often they cannot even feed their population. Richer countries should give the example, so we all won't have to regret in the next years. For the USA, I don't have much hope in changes for the good in the next few years. The current policy does not address this. The last one was the decrease in EPA standards for clean air to avoid plants to install expensive equipment.


kanuslupus wrote:
"Let's say" is quite far from fact. A region in Africa without industry is irrelevant. How does the US compare to other nations. How does the US compare to the EU? Japan, China, Australia etc. What are the numbers of actual industry? You can't compare the US to a country that has one factory (an exaggeration to make a point).
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2002 2:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not sure how else to explain my point, so I give up.
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lemming
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2002 8:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmm, wasn't expecting my comment to branch the previous topic. hence my silence for a while.

I think the US was making some pretty good headway on pollution for awhile. Just compare going to Los Angelas now as compared to the 1970s.

I'm not going to apologize for the present administration (or the prior one for that matter.) They don't seem to have any interest other than power and money. They seem to want to rewind some of the gains made by previous enviromental groups.

What I'd like to see is the US helping the under developed nations to be cleaner and at the same time clean up thier act. That would have an impact on the US economy in some sectors, but done correctly would have long term gains all around. But that wouldn't help the current generation in all likelyhood.

On diesel fuel: There's a version that's made from hemp. Too bad it doesn't carry much of the active ingredient from the related plant that gets you high. Otherwise, we might see a drastic decrease in road rage. 8)

Anyway, there are plenty of people in the US that would like to have a less arrogant, hamfisted leadership, but I think it's going to be a while before we can dig out of the current mess.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2002 2:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I made a couple errors - the Prius is neither a parallel, nor does it use a CVT (the Civic is however, and does use a CVT). The Prius is a power-split hybrid, which is way complicated, but essentially combines the best features of a series-hybrid (better city mileage) and a parallel (better highway mileage).
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