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Square Bottle
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 9:53 pm    Post subject: Method and Deadline for the Daniel Robbins Decision Reply with quote

Note to Moderators: This thread was moved pretty quickly into the debate thread. I understand trying to act quickly, but that discussion and this discussion are very separate issues (please see the first sentence of the actual post), and should absolutely be done in different threads. That, and the other thread is locked, as I'm sure you're aware. So since there is currently no place to discuss how this will be decided, please don't try to move this thread again. Again, this is not a place for campaigning for either side, but instead, it is a place to decide how the decision should be reached. Now that you understand, if you feel the need to delete or move this again, then please add an explanation.

This thread is not a place where you should argue for or against his return, as there are other threads for that, so be extra mindful of what you post. This thread is being made to encourage a decision to be made one way or another.

What will the criteria be for reaching a final decision? Will we have a poll on a certain day in which Daniel Robbins must achieve a certain percentage of the vote, or will certain respected members of the community be appointed as delegates to decide?

I suggest deciding on the method of reaching a solution by January 17, and then actually using that method to decide if Daniel Robbins should return should occur on January 21.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 10:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We know the trustees can't make the decision, since they can't reach the required quorum of three. I've searched around the Internet and know that two have definitely resigned (see the Problems at Gentoo thread) and of the remaining three (all of which have been inactive for months or more) one to three have also resigned, possibly on the secret core mailing list or by just going AWOL.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 10:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Those that perceive themselves to have the power will try to maintain that power. My guess is that drobbins will hear nothing from Gentoo.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 10:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

They could theoretically reach a unanimous decision, but they haven't yet made any statements it seems (somebody feel free to link me if I'm mistaken).

Also, I was hoping that this thread could be used to find the ideal way for a decision to be reached, and a deadline. Do you feel that we should wait for the trustees to reach a unanimous decision, or should we do this another way? And if so, what should that other way be? And when should the "Big Decision Day" be?
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Square Bottle
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 10:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

old school wrote:
Those that perceive themselves to have the power will try to maintain that power. My guess is that drobbins will hear nothing from Gentoo.


Whether or not people feel that the trustees would do this, it's not really fair for us to not say how this should all be decided and go after them for nothing happening. Somebody needs to provide a way for the decision to be reached! So let's talk about how the decision should be reached, and if the trustees ignore us, then we'll be able to point to something and say they ignored it at the very least. But I don't think the trustees would completely blow us off if we came up with something.

But anyway, yeah. Let's keep this thread to being about proposing the method for reaching a decision, please. And of course, I encourage the trustees to post here, too!
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 11:22 pm    Post subject: What are the Values involved? Reply with quote

Depending on who you are, gentoo means something different to you. If you are a user, you care about having access to what some people say is the best version of Linux. For the people that want to roll up their sleeves and make some decisions about how the OS will be set up on their machine, the results are usually gratifying.

If you are a social type, working with others, providing support for newbies, and enjoying the human interaction around the use of the operating system may be what turns you on. It is fantastic for the users to be able to give ideas to the developers and sometimes see the features appear. Some people like to teach and help others, and get a kick out of seeing happy people.

For the developers, gentoo is something else. It is a piece of art, elegantly designed and created. A common goal among software developers and a chance to create synergy. A total which is greater than the sum of the parts. It is a responsibility that they share. They care a great deal about doing it right, being efficient and reliable. It is a chance to work with other people who know what they are talking about. I have no doubt that they work very hard and that they care about the mutual respect within their group.

We all have a relationship of sorts with the product. Whether we want to use it, or build it, or support it, many of the people involved in the project have been at it for quite some time. I am sure no one wants to see everything disrupted.

The decision that is coming up will be made on the basis of all these factors, and it would help if each group gave thought to what others need the project to be, so that everyone can get satisfaction. I would call the people who care about how things turn out, "stakeholders". You all may want to create a list of what you care about and post it here in this thread. As time goes on, these factors should be considered from all sides. If everyone had mutual respect for the others and their needs, a decision could be made for the highest and best good of the project. I would like to see everyone happy with the results. Perfection is only the goal, but lets give it a try.

Doug
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 11:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Square Bottle wrote:
old school wrote:
Those that perceive themselves to have the power will try to maintain that power. My guess is that drobbins will hear nothing from Gentoo.


Whether or not people feel that the trustees would do this, it's not really fair for us to not say how this should all be decided and go after them for nothing happening. Somebody needs to provide a way for the decision to be reached! So let's talk about how the decision should be reached, and if the trustees ignore us, then we'll be able to point to something and say they ignored it at the very least. But I don't think the trustees would completely blow us off if we came up with something.

But anyway, yeah. Let's keep this thread to being about proposing the method for reaching a decision, please. And of course, I encourage the trustees to post here, too!
I don't believe the trustees give a whack about what we think. And that is the real problem. I think the community has already spoken; 90% of the respondents want the trustees to welcome drobbins back. As to how that's implemented; they know his e-mail address. :wink:
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 2:53 am    Post subject: Re: Method and Deadline for the Daniel Robbins Decision Reply with quote

Square Bottle wrote:
this [...] is a place to decide how the decision should be reached.
You do realize that nothing discussed in this thread has any impact on how the decision is reached? [/rhetorical]
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 3:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Square Bottle wrote:
And of course, I encourage the trustees to post here, too!


There aren't any trustees anymore. Or at least there aren't anyone we'd trust Gentoo.

Only developers and users are left. And if there's ever an answer, the latter won't be heard.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 6:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, this thread is not official. This is just a place for the community to brainstorm how we want this decision to be determined. Nobody has actually proposed anything yet anywhere, so I'll be the first. If I were overseeing this, here's how I'd do it.

1. Ask The Trustees: If the remaining trustees already have decided to agree to Daniel Robbins' proposal, then there is no need to proceed any further, really. This should happen immediately.

2. Inform The Community: Both sides should come up with a few paragraphs (750 words or so should be enough to inform people without driving community members away) to say why their side is right. They would be published simultaneously on the net for everybody to see, and people would be able to leave comments and questions. Both sides would then have three days to write and submit a short rebuttal (this would only need to be 500 words or so, and they'd also be able to respond to any comments if they felt like it), which would again be published to the web simultaneously. The first piece would published on Friday the 18th, then the second piece would be published on Monday the 21st.

3. The Election: With both sides having been able to represent themselves equally, it is now time to set up the actual election. The election should occur over the course of three days, and I feel that it should be weighted in such a way that general community members get one vote and developers get three votes. This way, the users can have a say in the direction Gentoo will take, but the developers still get more considerably more influence than just anybody since it's their work. The easiest way to do this would be to have two polls, one for everybody (including devs) and one just for the devs, and then we'd just multiply the results of the second poll by two and add it to the first poll (so the devs would end up with three votes total when you do the math). Polling would go from Wednesday the 23rd until Saturday the 26th.

4. The Announcement: Both sides should be present in an IRC room where the election officers will announce who won. Both sides should be ready to politely and gracefully congratulate the other side regardless of the outcome because it is actually important that people understand that Gentoo is one community, even if different people have different visions. They don't have to pretend to agree with the decision, they just need to be gentlemen. This should happen on Sunday the 27th.

Different people will probably want to make adjustments to this, but I think it's a fundamentally good plan, and it will give us a fairly produced outcome in a relatively quick time frame. :)
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 7:10 am    Post subject: A Step Towards Open Reply with quote

Square Bottle, Your grasp of the mechanics of all this exceeds my understanding, but it sounds like a good starting point. According to the gentoo charter, everything here is "open". That includes decisions, technical and otherwise. What I like about your plan is that it occurs out in the open where all the stakeholders can participate. I was not comfortable about some people trying to make this decision behind closed doors in a private forum because whatever happens, we are all going to want to feel ok about the process and go on with life.

I think the developers should probably get more than three votes each. They have a huge stake in the decision and we don't want them to be overrun by the user base. This is something that could be negotiated. I am glad you came up with a starting plan because I don't want the developers to think we are just sitting around complaining, or that we are unwilling to do some of the work required to administer the decision.

It is not right for any one interest group to dictate what should happen next, it should be negotiated. If the trustees are still around, they should weigh in. The developers should make their feeling known so that their needs can be considered.

If the gentoo community learns from this how to get along, it will be much stronger later. We can all grow from this experience.

All of this is my humble opinion and I apologize if it seems I am taking an attitude about anyone. I am just trying to be of service.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 8:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

old school wrote:
Those that perceive themselves to have the power will try to maintain that power. My guess is that drobbins will hear nothing from Gentoo.

+++
Sadly I fear that you are right.
The update of www.gentoo.org sure indicates this to be what the trustees have in mind.
I guess I expected this but can't help but be really sad about it :(
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 11:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think that Square Bottle have right - his proposal is honest, and I think that 3-to-1 is good proportion - devs are very important, but more than 3 is too much. So I suggest to let developpers decide if they accept this method of decision - because believing only in trustees is now not so good way of thinking... If they will decide something then it prove that we underestimate them, but if they don't...
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 12:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Frodo42 wrote:
old school wrote:
Those that perceive themselves to have the power will try to maintain that power. My guess is that drobbins will hear nothing from Gentoo.

+++
Sadly I fear that you are right.
The update of www.gentoo.org sure indicates this to be what the trustees have in mind.
I guess I expected this but can't help but be really sad about it :(

I think I can say that several devs have been in direct contact with Daniel about his offer. And about the proposed "election", I'm pretty sure that's not gonna happen, especially not in the mentioned timeframe (setting up a secure and reliable voting infrastructure requires a bit more than just a creating a forum poll).
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 12:21 pm    Post subject: I have a concern about the status quo Reply with quote

It looks like the way we are going, we are looking for a "vote of confidence". It would be very easy for people with old stories to simply withhold their confidence. That would leave us right where we are now, with things needing to be done. We may have to get the developers to agree in principle with the idea that management is a good idea. Then if they don't like the candidate, maybe they can suggest someone they do like. Otherwise we can go around in circles. We shouldn't punish Daniel for trying to help, and making this a political election may result in mudslinging. If that happens and I was him, I would just walk away.

In summary, an election is a great idea, but having more than one candidate would leave us in the position of having solved the problem when we are done.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 1:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I hope this doesn't develop as I fear it will right now, I feel the developers are being very unfair to Daniel just from reading the last few blog posts on gentoo planet and this whole thing is just making me sad. I feel really sorry for Daniel, the way he has been treated all the way along is just not fair ... that goes back to right from when he left because he had gotten such a huge debt from getting Gentoo up and running, I really don't see much gratitude towards him in what little I as a normal user am allowed to see. Those of us who tried to raise a bit of money as a "thank you" to Daniel back then were also scolded by different people.
Not accepting his offer is one thing, but at least you could do that in a friendly way.
I really don't understand why the environment among developers here on Gentoo has to be as hostile as I feel it is whenever I in any way see something from those circles. I doesn't serve anyone any good, I like these forums because I almost always feel welcome and there is a positive spirit of helpfulness here ... that isn't the feeling I get when I go to the bugzilla where I hardly dare post anything anymore.

Not sure if this post is good for anything, sorry for being a bit emotional folks.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 4:30 pm    Post subject: Re: I have a concern about the status quo Reply with quote

It sounds like people fundamentally support my proposal for how to manage this. What should our next step be then, everybody?
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 8:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Frodo42 wrote:
old school wrote:
Those that perceive themselves to have the power will try to maintain that power. My guess is that drobbins will hear nothing from Gentoo.

+++
Sadly I fear that you are right.
The update of www.gentoo.org sure indicates this to be what the trustees have in mind.
I guess I expected this but can't help but be really sad about it :(


Aye, no surprise there. My hope is he seizes the trademark and forks Gentoo. Or rather, he becomes Gentoo and leaves the current cabal to rename, fork their own distro.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 10:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Visceral wrote:
Frodo42 wrote:
old school wrote:
Those that perceive themselves to have the power will try to maintain that power. My guess is that drobbins will hear nothing from Gentoo.

+++
Sadly I fear that you are right.
The update of www.gentoo.org sure indicates this to be what the trustees have in mind.
I guess I expected this but can't help but be really sad about it :(


Aye, no surprise there. My hope is he seizes the trademark and forks Gentoo. Or rather, he becomes Gentoo and leaves the current cabal to rename, fork their own distro.


Just as a note, according to the Wikipedia entry on Gentoo, Daniel Robbins now technically owns the trademarks and rights again since the charter was revoked. But anyway, this thread is supposed to be about how to run the election and when it should take place. Rawr.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 4:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Square Bottle wrote:
Visceral wrote:
Frodo42 wrote:
old school wrote:
Those that perceive themselves to have the power will try to maintain that power. My guess is that drobbins will hear nothing from Gentoo.

+++
Sadly I fear that you are right.
The update of www.gentoo.org sure indicates this to be what the trustees have in mind.
I guess I expected this but can't help but be really sad about it :(


Aye, no surprise there. My hope is he seizes the trademark and forks Gentoo. Or rather, he becomes Gentoo and leaves the current cabal to rename, fork their own distro.


Just as a note, according to the Wikipedia entry on Gentoo, Daniel Robbins now technically owns the trademarks and rights again since the charter was revoked. But anyway, this thread is supposed to be about how to run the election and when it should take place. Rawr.


I guess what I'm saying is there really wont be any "election" or community decision on this, it's going to either be accepted or rejected. But in a nutshell, as I understand it, you are correct. So the question is what he decides to do if the offer is not accepted by the current trustee. If he wants, he can rebuild the entire thing and call it Gentoo sans any current devs who don't want to be involved with him, but will he? That's the 6 million dollar question. Legally, only the trustee has a say, I think, but realistically he'll need much wider support to make it go down easy. He apparently has most of the user community behind him, the problem is pulling in devs to replace those who refuse the regime change. Or he could simply say, "ok, whatever" and walk away from it all again. If there was ever going to be a fork in the community, it's fast approaching.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 5:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I very much doubt he will use the trademark and all that or try to "steal" the gentoo name or what not. nor do i really think that gentoo is capable of being forked, you would need to setup new mirrors and completely recreate the structure required to keep the tree up to date, and that itself will take time. and then there is the QA. It's possible but i dont think its a smart thing to try to do. It's not going to be any different than gentoo. you might as well just mirror it and change some default settings or apps.

remember Gentoo is about choice.

no one makes us use portage

no one makes us use gentoo-sources.

i don't know what to say, trying to fork gentoo for organizational reasons would seem very petty to me...
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