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Gentoo Foundation Website Redesign Finalists
Aaron Shi
46%
 46%  [ 1452 ]
Charles-Andre Landemaine - gencorp
15%
 15%  [ 475 ]
Charles-Andre Landemaine - gentech
10%
 10%  [ 331 ]
Derek Gerstmann
4%
 4%  [ 133 ]
Iris on Mirror
20%
 20%  [ 638 ]
None of the above -- keep the existing look and feel
3%
 3%  [ 118 ]
Total Votes : 3147

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Turnip
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PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2005 11:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kallamej wrote:
Can we drop the silly underlined links? They are only useful, at best, in designs were links have the same colour as normal text. This isn't the case here.

Please don't do that. Underlined links are:

a) What people expect.
b) An accessibility feature.
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ciaranm
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PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2005 11:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Turnip wrote:
kallamej wrote:
Can we drop the silly underlined links? They are only useful, at best, in designs were links have the same colour as normal text. This isn't the case here.

Please don't do that. Underlined links are:

a) What people expect.
b) An accessibility feature.

Bah. I suppose next you'll be claiming that all door handles should be bright red and triangular so that we know what they are?
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Turnip
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PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2005 12:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Further reading: http://diveintoaccessibility.org/day_12_using_color_safely.html.

But maybe Gentoo people don't care about accessibility...

I might be more inclined to agree with your opinion, if only I thought that the underlined links actually look bad. But IMHO it works quite well.
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Slyde
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PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2005 12:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ciaranm wrote:
Turnip wrote:
Please don't do that. Underlined links are:

a) What people expect.
b) An accessibility feature.

Bah. I suppose next you'll be claiming that all door handles should be bright red and triangular so that we know what they are?

As long as the links are a different colour, underlining them shouldn't be necessary.

Especially on the tabs on the main page. Underlining makes them look ugly...
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Turnip
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PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2005 12:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh, and to go along with the anology: no, you don't need to paint it red because the door handle is made to look like a door handle. But in this case kallamej is suggesting making the links look like normal text (at least to colour blind users).
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Butts McCokey
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PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2005 12:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i think the underlined links are best staying as with the infinity sign
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Slyde
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PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2005 12:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Turnip wrote:
Further reading: http://diveintoaccessibility.org/day_12_using_color_safely.html.

But maybe Gentoo people don't care about accessibility...

I might be more inclined to agree with your opinion, if only I thought that the underlined links actually look bad. But IMHO it works quite well.

I don't think its an issue of whether "Gentoo cares/ or not". Let's not rush into brash assumptions. Now that you have stated that it is issue visual accessability issues, and not personal preference, it makes much more sense.
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Turnip
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PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2005 12:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay, fair point (about brash assumptions). However, I didn't say anything in my inital reply about personal preference. In fact, I quite clearly stated that it's "b) An accessibility feature."
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Turnip
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PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2005 12:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also, what you said about the navigation menu at the top I agree with. This is only an issue for inline links in body text; it's pretty clear that the nav at the top contains links. There is also quite high contrast. The text is also bold. Now look at the inline links here. They are not bold. There is little contrast. If the underline was removed, you wouldn't need to have particularly bad eyesight to be affected.
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ciaranm
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PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2005 12:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Turnip wrote:
Okay, fair point (about brash assumptions). However, I didn't say anything in my inital reply about personal preference. In fact, I quite clearly stated that it's "b) An accessibility feature."

Which is still invalid, because if a user really wants links underlined, then they just set their browser to always underline links.
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Turnip
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PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2005 12:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ciaranm wrote:
Turnip wrote:
Okay, fair point (about brash assumptions). However, I didn't say anything in my inital reply about personal preference. In fact, I quite clearly stated that it's "b) An accessibility feature."

Which is still invalid, because if a user really wants links underlined, then they just set their browser to always underline links.

What information do you base this conclusion on?
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ciaranm
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PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2005 12:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Turnip wrote:
ciaranm wrote:
Turnip wrote:
Okay, fair point (about brash assumptions). However, I didn't say anything in my inital reply about personal preference. In fact, I quite clearly stated that it's "b) An accessibility feature."

Which is still invalid, because if a user really wants links underlined, then they just set their browser to always underline links.

What information do you base this conclusion on?

Several hours of my life wasted in "user interface design" lectures, particularly the parts spent listening to how clever CSS is because it allows the end user to override preferences to fit in with their accessibility-related needs.
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Turnip
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PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2005 12:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ciaranm wrote:
Turnip wrote:
ciaranm wrote:
Turnip wrote:
Okay, fair point (about brash assumptions). However, I didn't say anything in my inital reply about personal preference. In fact, I quite clearly stated that it's "b) An accessibility feature."

Which is still invalid, because if a user really wants links underlined, then they just set their browser to always underline links.

What information do you base this conclusion on?

Several hours of my life wasted in "user interface design" lectures, particularly the parts spent listening to how clever CSS is because it allows the end user to override preferences to fit in with their accessibility-related needs.

Maybe it's different in this case because Gentoo is a geek product, but GENERALLY I'm not sure how many visually impaired users would have a clue about using CSS to underline links in their browser.

Anyway, we could debate about this all day and get nowhere. I've stated my opinion and you've stated yours -- let's leave it at that.
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ciaranm
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PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2005 1:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Turnip wrote:
Maybe it's different in this case because Gentoo is a geek product, but GENERALLY I'm not sure how many visually impaired users would have a clue about using CSS to underline links in their browser.

Heck, they don't even need to touch the CSS themselves. There's a frickin' ticky box in Firefox for it (and I'd imagine that other browsers have one too).
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Turnip
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PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2005 1:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ciaranm wrote:
Turnip wrote:
Maybe it's different in this case because Gentoo is a geek product, but GENERALLY I'm not sure how many visually impaired users would have a clue about using CSS to underline links in their browser.

Heck, they don't even need to touch the CSS themselves. There's a frickin' ticky box in Firefox for it (and I'd imagine that other browsers have one too).

Are you talking about "Fonts & Colours" in the Preferences dialog? I have the underline links box checked (it was already checked), and it makes absolutely no difference. I assume that it's a default setting (especially as it says "Set default fonts and colours for websites").

Sure, it might be possible to do with an extension and sure, Opera has better support for user style sheets, but let's not forget that 90% of the web is still using IE.

(And I'll re-iterate that this is a general conclusion -- I wouldn't be surprised to hear that Gentoo gets hits mainly from Firefox.)
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Tazmanian
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PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2005 4:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Slyde wrote:
As long as the links are a different colour, underlining them shouldn't be necessary.


This is not true. There ought to be a colour contrast between the links and ordinary text. As Turnip points out, if you remove the underlining here, there would only be a very subtle difference between the ordinary text and the link text (because their colours have similar intensities), making links difficult to recognise.
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Tazmanian
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PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2005 5:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

curtis119 wrote:
The redesign is progressing nicely. I have some preliminary layouts if anyone is interested in seeing them. The keyword here is preliminary. This was a quick hack I did with the xsl backend and generated on my local computer. The final layout is subject to review by swift et al.

Main Page


On that main page: "Portage: an easy to use world-class package management solution." Does that text need to stay as is, or can it change? Maybe it's just me, but that sounds like a case of excessive marketing-speak.
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mallchin
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PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2005 7:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ciaranm wrote:

Bah. I suppose next you'll be claiming that all door handles should be bright red and triangular so that we know what they are?


I've always preferred hexagons.
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PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2005 7:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Turnip wrote:
Accessibility concerns...

I guess what I'm after is that the stylesheet should neither enforce nor prevent underlined links. It should be a browser setting, IMHO. Apparently, the current f.g.o stylesheet is not good in this regard as it seems to prevent some underlining for those who want it. Conversely, I don't want underlining shoved down my throat.
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garfield
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PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2005 8:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Any plans on where to find mirrors, irc channels and various of other stuff that is included in the menu to the left in the current design?
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loki99
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PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2005 10:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kallamej wrote:
Conversely, I don't want underlining shoved down my throat.


second that!

Tazmanian wrote:
On that main page: "Portage: an easy to use world-class package management solution." Does that text need to stay as is, or can it change? Maybe it's just me, but that sounds like a case of excessive marketing-speak.


and second that one, too!
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ian!
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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2005 6:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kallamej wrote:
Conversely, I don't want underlining shoved down my throat.

Same here. - It should be an option instead of a rule.

Tazmanian wrote:
On that main page: "Portage: an easy to use world-class package management solution." Does that text need to stay as is, or can it change? Maybe it's just me, but that sounds like a case of excessive marketing-speak.

I think that's something for the www-redesign mailinglist. Please send suggestions there.
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Sven Vermeulen
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PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2005 4:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Curtis is doing some major development on the site. Okay, there are still pro/con discussions on small stuff but I'm glad to see things are progressing nicely. For almost all reference pages he has now shown examples (but they're still just that - preliminary examples).

I assume that, once Curtis and Aaron get along about the layout, we're all set :)
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Q-collective
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2005 5:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sven Vermeulen wrote:
Curtis is doing some major development on the site. Okay, there are still pro/con discussions on small stuff but I'm glad to see things are progressing nicely. For almost all reference pages he has now shown examples (but they're still just that - preliminary examples).

I assume that, once Curtis and Aaron get along about the layout, we're all set :)

So, this is a Five-Year-Plan, soviet style?
Nice to know we have a new site in 2010.

Seriously, this is running for nine months now, when are we going to actually *see* some progress?
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curtis119
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 12:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Q-collective wrote:

So, this is a Five-Year-Plan, soviet style?
Nice to know we have a new site in 2010.

Seriously, this is running for nine months now, when are we going to actually *see* some progress?


I posted screenshots of a working site that is implemented with the same backend (XSL/XML) that the normal gentoo site runs on. So you already can *see* some progress.

On another note. I was just recently made a gentoo developer (it becomes *Official* on July 15th). Ramareth is in the process of setting up a gentoo hosted test machine for me to work on instead of using my own server here in my house. These two things will help me with this process. I still can't give you an exact time when it will go live on www.gentoo.org though. As with all things FOSS, it will be done when I finish it.


Main Page
Planet Gentoo
Handbook Intro
Handbook Index
Newsletter
Handbook Intro - text browser
Forum - Main Index

The server those are hosted on has DNS issues. If you get a "cannot be found" error just click it again a few times and it will work. This will be fixed as soon as possible
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Last edited by curtis119 on Fri Jul 01, 2005 7:45 pm; edited 1 time in total
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