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ebrostig
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2005 3:43 pm    Post subject: Florida... I cry for you... Reply with quote

Bush to sign 'wild West' bill allowing violent responses to threats wrote:

TALLAHASSEE -- Floridians could "meet force with force" on the street, in a bar or just about anywhere else without fear of prosecution, under a bill that cleared the state Legislature on Tuesday.

Gov. Jeb Bush plans to sign the measure into law, even though opponents said it amounts to legalized dueling that could lead to simple arguments escalating into fatal fights.

The bill (SB 436), a top priority of the National Rifle Association in Tallahassee this year, won final approval in the House on Tuesday by a 94-20 vote. Two weeks ago, it passed the Senate 39-0.

The bill essentially broadens and codifies a right Floridians already have in their homes or cars, saying that there's no need to retreat before fighting back. People attacked in their homes generally don't have to back off. But in public spaces, deadly force can be used only after trying to retreat.

The bill would take effect Oct. 1.

Opponents said the idea will legalize shootouts in the streets.

"This bill creates a wild, wild West out there," said Rep. Eleanor Sobel, D-Hollywood.

"It's a little dismaying that any responsible legislator would consider this," said Assistant State Attorney Bill Gross, who prosecutes homicides in Lake County. "This is going to make us less safe because it's going to discourage all restraint by citizens."

"As it is right now, we see tragedies in our court system every day involving citizens who don't exercise restraint," he said. "Now they are under less legal requirement to use restraint before resorting to violence. I believe this is a step backward."

Bush said he sees the law as another deterrent against crime.

"Our crime rate's dropping, and it's because of measures that allow people to protect themselves and their properties, as well as putting habitual violent offenders away for longer periods of time," he said.

Rep. Dennis Baxley, R-Ocala, the House sponsor, said the law would simply grant the same protections to Floridians that other states such as California, Georgia and Tennessee already have in place. He also said it would make criminals pause before attacking someone.

"You are empowering our citizens of Florida to have a safer society," said Baxley, an NRA member, during House debate. "Some violent rape will not occur because somebody felt empowered by this bill."

But there was concern from some Democrats that the law goes too far.

"It legalizes dueling," said Rep. Dan Gelber, D-Miami Beach. "It legalizes fighting to the point of death without anybody having a duty to retreat."

NRA lobbyist Marion Hammer said the bill does not condone dueling. "The bill says that when you are attacked you may meet force with force to defend yourself. It does not condone fighting," she said.

Michael Edmondson, a spokesman for the Palm Beach State Attorney's Office, said prosecutors had no official position on the bill and it's up to citizens to determine whether it's appropriate. "It's our job to simply apply the law," he said.


Time to stay indoors!
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2005 3:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lovely
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pitcrawler
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2005 3:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

They should modify the law so that only fair duels are allowed. Choose your pistols and walk 10 paces...
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2005 4:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

it would be better if they all shoot out themselves :/ less idiots on the world
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dat
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2005 4:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not saying that I agree or disagree with this bill..

I don't get it.

If someone tried to mug me, and I happened to have a baseball bat with me (don't ask me why, it's not the point), it's illegal (in Florida) to take a swing?
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2005 4:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, you juat have to try to run away from them first. That way, they can shoot you! Genious!

I like the Old West way of doing things, this is a great idea :P
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ShadowMetis
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2005 4:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This really sounds funny to me. Makes me want to move to Florida. Go have some fun dueling rednecks. All they do down there is rape and murder anyway. This isn't a big change for them.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2005 5:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anyone know of places in FL where the humidity "seems" less than it is? For example, does the east coast of FL feel less humid than the west coast of FL? Some of the keys have the feel of low humidity, but it isn't exactly a booming area for jobs.
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ebrostig
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2005 5:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
Anyone know of places in FL where the humidity "seems" less than it is? For example, does the east coast of FL feel less humid than the west coast of FL? Some of the keys have the feel of low humidity, but it isn't exactly a booming area for jobs.

Anywhere along the coast feels good. The keys are great, telecommute...
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2005 5:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ebrostig wrote:
pjp wrote:
Anyone know of places in FL where the humidity "seems" less than it is? For example, does the east coast of FL feel less humid than the west coast of FL? Some of the keys have the feel of low humidity, but it isn't exactly a booming area for jobs.

Anywhere along the coast feels good. The keys are great, telecommute...
I've always perceived telecommuting to be a pipe dream. I've never known anyone that did it, but I'd certainly consider it. As for the coasts, I've heard the FL west coast is very humid, and feels it... St. Petersburg maybe, I forget where exactly. Were you referring to either coast?
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stonent
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2005 6:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

/me pulls off a glove and slaps Ebrostig with it.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2005 6:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/11312112.htm wrote:
Some loudmouthed lunkhead at the kid's soccer game bumps up against you, uses a nasty epithet, reaches into his pocket and pulls out . . . What? Could be his Blackberry. Or it just might be a black anodized aluminum Colt .45 pistol with seven in the clip and one in the chamber. Assume the worst. Whip out your AK-47 and empty the banana clip.

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pjp
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2005 6:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bill Cosby wrote:
http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/11312112.htm wrote:
Some loudmouthed lunkhead at the kid's soccer game bumps up against you, uses a nasty epithet, reaches into his pocket and pulls out . . . What? Could be his Blackberry. Or it just might be a black anodized aluminum Colt .45 pistol with seven in the clip and one in the chamber. Assume the worst. Whip out your AK-47 and empty the banana clip.
Fortunately, that isn't meeting force with force... its shooting at movement in the trees before you know its a deer, or a person.

And lets not forget that automatic weapons are illegal, so nobody could have one (an AK-47).
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2005 7:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
ebrostig wrote:
pjp wrote:
Anyone know of places in FL where the humidity "seems" less than it is? For example, does the east coast of FL feel less humid than the west coast of FL? Some of the keys have the feel of low humidity, but it isn't exactly a booming area for jobs.

Anywhere along the coast feels good. The keys are great, telecommute...
I've always perceived telecommuting to be a pipe dream. I've never known anyone that did it, but I'd certainly consider it. As for the coasts, I've heard the FL west coast is very humid, and feels it... St. Petersburg maybe, I forget where exactly. Were you referring to either coast?

I live by St. Petersburg you are right it is really humid here. The pollution mixed with the humidity really leaves a nice dew all over everything in the morning :wink:

on topic: I saw that article in the newspaper when I got home from school and at first I thought "okay self-defense not a bad idea." Then, I realized how crazy people are around here about private property and the likes. I can guarantee there will be a surge of gun violence in the months to come.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2005 7:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As much as I disagree with stupid laws that make it illegal to fight back, surely legalizing shooting people on the streets is a bit much? A stungun or taser would be alot more practical, and 'reverseable' should a 'mistake' be made. And what's to stop someone from shooting you for alterior motives, or out of some insane bloodlust, and making false claims about it being self defense? This law is far too imperfect, unless you are a serial killer who want a legal way to get his kicks, or a hick who wants to be able to kill bblack people with impunity (what floridian jury would think the white guy is lying?).
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2005 7:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nicom wrote:
As much as I disagree with stupid laws that make it illegal to fight back, surely legalizing shooting people on the streets is a bit much? A stungun or taser would be alot more practical, and 'reverseable' should a 'mistake' be made. And what's to stop someone from shooting you for alterior motives, or out of some insane bloodlust, and making false claims about it being self defense? This law is far too imperfect, unless you are a serial killer who want a legal way to get his kicks, or a hick who wants to be able to kill bblack people with impunity (what floridian jury would think the white guy is lying?).
no no no Monicom, you are forgetting, this is america, if its insane enough that a 3rd world country would never try it then they will give it a go there

/dev/random wrote:
The pollution mixed with the humidity really leaves a nice dew all over everything in the morning
Bloody hippies asking for Kyoto eh.... :roll: Anything that does more than 6mpg is useless
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2005 8:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cokehabit wrote:

/dev/random wrote:
The pollution mixed with the humidity really leaves a nice dew all over everything in the morning
Bloody hippies asking for Kyoto eh.... :roll: Anything that does more than 6mpg is useless

The sad truth is you're barely exaggerating the attitude over here. It's basically all pick-up trucks, SUVs, and everyone's favorite the Hummer around here.

edit: A note before I get flamed. By here I mean the immediate area not all of the USA.


Last edited by /dev/random on Wed Apr 06, 2005 8:29 pm; edited 1 time in total
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pjp
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2005 8:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

/dev/random wrote:
on topic: I saw that article in the newspaper when I got home from school and at first I thought "okay self-defense not a bad idea." Then, I realized how crazy people are around here about private property and the likes. I can guarantee there will be a surge of gun violence in the months to come.
Don't be shocked if the doom and gloom doesn't happen. Colorado passed a "right to carry" law a few/couple years ago, and it hasn't turned into the old west. I haven't read of any horror stories about how gun violence has increased either.

Its a simple matter really... responsible people will continue to be responsible.


And thanks for clarifying St. Petersburg.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2005 8:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I though St. Petersburg was one of the nicer cities in florida when I was there a few years ago, then again I didn't check out the keys.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2005 8:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nicom wrote:
I though St. Petersburg was one of the nicer cities in florida when I was there a few years ago, then again I didn't check out the keys.

It is a nice area I was just pointing out that it gets really humid here. The pollution can be blamed on the fact that this area is the most densely populated area in Florida. It's not like we have the pollution levels of New York City or Los Angeles.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2005 9:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nicom wrote:
As much as I disagree with stupid laws that make it illegal to fight back, surely legalizing shooting people on the streets is a bit much? A stungun or taser would be alot more practical, and 'reverseable' should a 'mistake' be made. And what's to stop someone from shooting you for alterior motives, or out of some insane bloodlust, and making false claims about it being self defense? This law is far too imperfect, unless you are a serial killer who want a legal way to get his kicks, or a hick who wants to be able to kill bblack people with impunity (what floridian jury would think the white guy is lying?).



Show me where in the bill that it states that this gives everyone the right to carry a gun.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2005 9:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's funny how they opponents of the bill use words like 'wild west' and 'dueling' and make it sound like there's going to be gun slinging. All it means is you don't have to back down from the punks out there causing trouble. Someone picks on your wife or kid, just bust 'em upside the face before they have a chance to do anything. I'm sick of seeing people getting in trouble for doing the right thing, like defending their family or self. We've basically created a society where any little punk can go around, do whatever they want, and get away with it, because while the law should be busting their asses, it instead protects them somehow.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2005 10:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I dont get the point of this.

Even over here, in a much less violent society one is allowed to use the neccessary force to defend oneself from an illegal attack. And its all regulated in one or two paragraphs. Why exactly is there a need for a bill regulating it?

And what is this "retreat"-bullshit? You should be allowed to use the neccessary force to stop the attack, not more and not less, without being forced to retreat...When someones comes charging at you with a knife and you happen to have an assault gun, you dont try to retreat but raise your gun and if he still comes charging...tough luck.
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stonent
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2005 10:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Uppi wrote:
Even over here


Where?
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2005 12:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
Don't be shocked if the doom and gloom doesn't happen. Colorado passed a "right to carry" law a few/couple years ago, and it hasn't turned into the old west. I haven't read of any horror stories about how gun violence has increased either.

Its a simple matter really... responsible people will continue to be responsible.

And thanks for clarifying St. Petersburg.


of course, it is hard to show a cause/effect relationship between this law and the following incident, but where is Columbine?

you are right, responsible people will probably remain responsible. the total crazies, the partial crazies, the people right on the edge, the drunk ass in the bar who doesn't "like my face" and people who have been looking to solve their problems with a little gun duel on the street while i am walking by is who i am worried about.

j
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