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masseya
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2002 11:19 pm    Post subject: White Hat arrested.. Reply with quote

http://online.securityfocus.com/news/813

I don't really think this sort of thing helps all that much. I would much rather see an increase in arrests of script kiddies or better yet a higher penalty on those who are caught.
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Tuxisuau
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2002 11:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's frightening.
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Curious
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2002 12:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh, fantastic. Who do I have to apply to to get my covert channel tool vetted as non-criminal?

-- Curious
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pilla
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Joined: 07 Aug 2002
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2002 12:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Move to Brazil. We don t have those stupid laws yet (and I am not missing them).
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masseya
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2002 4:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, the thing is that it's not really all that direct of an interpretation of law that they arrested him on. The law would imply that you would have to personally use the thing to cause damage, which he hasn't. This would be like arresting someone for making a hammer that someone else used to beat a person to death. Sure, there are accomplices to some crimes, but is the guy that served the murderer a slushi at the Shell station just before the crimes were committed an accomplice because he fed the murderer? I would say no.
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Mnemia
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2002 6:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Computer "crime" laws are usually so incredibly vague in wording as to border on ridiculous. I think these laws exist basically to allow the authorities to go after anyone they want on little evidence who is engaging in any kind of grey area activity. How are you possibly going to prove you didn't break the law when the law is so broad and sweeping as to cover virtually any activity involved with security? And why do we even need laws against computer crimes that carry in many cases penalties far beyond those for breaking and entering in real life, for instance? It's all just a big bundle of misunderstanding and pandering on the part of lawmakers and cops mixed with a dash of maliciousness and power-mongering.

Sigh, why do I get the feeling more and more that I could be accused of a crime for something that I'm doing without any possible idea that I could be breaking the law? And that if that happened I would have to prove my own innocence rather than the other way around like it's supposed to be?
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Mnemia
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2002 6:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In the same vein, this article scares the hell out of me for how low the burden of proof is for these things. I'm not really defending the guy who did this per se, but I don't think what he did in any way merits the penalties he will receive and the way the system railroads people.
Isn't it frightening to think that you could just come across a page of child porn, see what it was and leave immediately and then be charged with 60 counts of posession for the multiple thumbnails downloaded into your browser cache? Not only is that extending the "metaphor" of physical images way too far into the computer realm, but the fact that in one innocent click from a Google search you could be committing dozens of felonies carrying a lifetime in prison is just frightening. The thing that scared me most in that article was the attitude of the prosector who seemed to not care about guilt or innocence as long as she could "get" someone for something.

This world has become so screwed up that it's frightening. I think it's high time that people started to understand that the government, the FBI, and cops are NOT there to protect the innocent but to try to make criminals out of as many people as possible. That's what gives them power and is in IMHO a rather insidious backdoor method for expansion of government control over daily life. You may not think you're affected by these people now since you don't browse shady Yahoo groups, but if this trend continues unchecked it will lead to a time when few will be able to avoid the sweep of the law.
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pjp
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2002 4:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

T0rn sounds as questionable as the utilities written. That said, I hope the laws aren't sufficient enough for a conviction.

Rather than T0rnkit, a less 'dubious' name might have helped. I doubt CTOs will run into trouble (unless they are caught breaking into machines to ensure clients).

Security, Penetration and Evalutation Suite sounds a bit more legitamite than T0rnkit.

*shrug*

Mnemia: I started reading your article... made it through page 3, skimmed 4, and noticed there was a 5. Could you summarize the issue? I'm assuming this Adam guy received something he supposedly didn't want and was convicted because of it?
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Mnemia
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2002 7:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The guy was joining "hundreds" of Yahoo groups that were trading in all kinds of legal porn. One of them that he got on was trading child porn and being observed by authorities. So he was convicted of seperate posession counts for every picture in the cache, even deleted ones recovered forensically.

I by no means think the guy was totally innocent, because I think that if I had happened by a group like that I would probably try to call the authorities immediately. I'm just saying that the penalties for crimes like this are becoming outrageously out of proportion just because they involve a computer. And I think it's ridiculous to be counting pictures in cache because I believe the original intent of the law was to punish collectors of this material, not those who had it automatically downloaded en mass by a website for them and then deleted it.

Come to think of it, if I accidently happened upon something like that, I would NOT call the police and I would immediately destroy my hard drive before they could seize it. I wouldn't want them to find a way to make it look like I intended to collect this sick stuff to a jury (note the part in the article where they said that defendents in cases like this basically have no choice but to plead guilty whether they are or not because juries are so swayed by the emotional testimony of a prosecutor waving the images in their face.) Nice definition of justice there...no wonder it's been statistically proven that both prosecutors and defense attorneys try to keep more educated people off juries. They can't sway those people as easily using tactics like that.
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bos_mindwarp
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 06, 2002 12:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

arrest everyone employed by Colt for making guns then...
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