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markj
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2004 11:35 pm    Post subject: thoughts on Israel and Palestine Reply with quote

The Palastinians are utterly idiotic - have they not seen what happens? They blow up a bus and kill 10 people, Israel buldozers their houses and launches rocket attacks on their settlements, killing many more.

To be honest, it is the way to deal with terrorists and I totally agree. When the terrorists abide by the Geneva convension then fair enough, let's all play by that rule. But when you face an enemy who will murder your children in cold blood then you have to act appropriatley. This is not condoning out and out murder, but the heavy handed tactics of the Israeli government don't seem to deter the suicide bombers (THE single most cowardly act I believe possible) so what would happen if they took the European sort of line?

"Err...Please stop blowing yourselves up and murdering our people, please...."

"Not until you leave the holy land..."

"Well, we don't reallywant to do that..."

"BOOM..."

"Please stop doing that..."

"BOOM"

And this goes on. And on. And on.

Israel is a dangerous country, one of the last in the world you want to mess with. It has a MASSIVE persicution complex (quite rightly) and has a rather over-zealous army. It's like performing terrorist actions in North Korea, exactly the same rules apply as neither country actually signed the Geneva convension.

The Palastinians *really* need to realise that it will not be Israel that ceases hostilities first. Keeping going is simply suicide.
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ta-life
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2004 11:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i think you truelly need to get information about what happen from after WWII between the english, the french and the US on jerusalem, 6 days war etc....
before stating
Quote:
The Palastinians *really* need to realise that it will not be Israel that ceases hostilities first. Keeping going is simply suicide.


This situation is way more complicated than anything on any part of the world
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markj
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2004 11:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ta-life wrote:
i think you truelly need to get information about what happen from after WWII between the english, the french and the US on jerusalem, 6 days war etc....
before stating
Quote:
The Palastinians *really* need to realise that it will not be Israel that ceases hostilities first. Keeping going is simply suicide.


This situation is way more complicated than anything on any part of the world


Yes i do know what happen and have read all that has happened, but i still stand by the statement i have said, especially this: "The Palastinians *really* need to realise that it will not be Israel that ceases hostilities first. Keeping going is simply suicide."

Also i do know that Jordan occuppy more of plalastinian land than isreal!
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2004 11:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I personally think the US should stop helping Israel in the war over there. So what if they get taken over? It's a part of life and shit happens. We shouldn't bother evening out the play ground. Let the country with the bigger army win.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2004 11:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also, both sides have a problem - 99% of the population are terrorised and killed innocently and suffer because 1% of the population are fascist #####.

The Palestinians have to realise that Israel is not going anywhere.

The Israelis have to realise that the Palestinians need to get their country.

The problem is, even if the political powers on both sides can agree on peace (as happened between 98 and 00), the fascist ##### on either side will do something stupid and its back to square one.

The wall is pointless, as there is a sizeable Arab minority in Israel, most of them muslims.

What is the solution? I have no idea to be honest, as relations are at an all-time low and a solution looks more impossible than ever.

I just hope both sides realise that the real threat to peace is from their own ranks. If both sides can sort out their domestic mess, maybe then its possible to talk about peace again.
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justanothergentoofanatic
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2004 11:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The Palastinians are utterly idiotic - have they not seen what happens? They blow up a bus and kill 10 people, Israel buldozers their houses and launches rocket attacks on their settlements, killing many more.


Not sure why you believe this. The terrorists seem to be winning, for the moment at least. Isreal would not have pulled out of Lebannon or Gaza if they hadn't been taking heavy casualties.


Quote:
This is not condoning out and out murder, but the heavy handed tactics of the Israeli government don't seem to deter the suicide bombers


You lost me here. If Isreal's tactics are not working, how can it possibly validate their approach to terror?


Quote:
suicide bombers (THE single most cowardly act I believe possible)?


The act of sacrificing yourself for a greater cause is the bravest human act possible, regardless of whether you happen to believe the cause is right or wrong.

-Mike
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2004 11:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

airwave wrote:
I personally think the US should stop helping Israel in the war over there. So what if they get taken over? It's a part of life and shit happens. We shouldn't bother evening out the play ground. Let the country with the bigger army win.


Isreal would never allow any one to walk over them. Anyone who attempted to do so would be commiting suicide.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2004 11:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

justanothergentoofanatic wrote:
Quote:
The Palastinians are utterly idiotic - have they not seen what happens? They blow up a bus and kill 10 people, Israel buldozers their houses and launches rocket attacks on their settlements, killing many more.


Not sure why you believe this. The terrorists seem to be winning, for the moment at least. Isreal would not have pulled out of Lebannon or Gaza if they hadn't been taking heavy casualties.


Quote:
This is not condoning out and out murder, but the heavy handed tactics of the Israeli government don't seem to deter the suicide bombers


You lost me here. If Isreal's tactics are not working, how can it possibly validate their approach to terror?


Quote:
suicide bombers (THE single most cowardly act I believe possible)?


The act of sacrificing yourself for a greater cause is the bravest human act possible, regardless of whether you happen to believe the cause is right or wrong.

-Mike


Attacking inoccent civillians is cowardly. Martin Luther King never used violence.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2004 11:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i feel sorry for the palistinians as the israel has pretty much flaunted international law and is pretty close to commiting genocide on them but the only solution i can see{1} is for israel to write them a big cheque, relocate them somewhere else and build a big wall then STOP invading other countries and behave like a proper country rather than doing all the nasty stuff everyone except americans seem to know about .


{1} that whisle blower who israel abducted from rome 18 years ago recons the have at least 100 nukes so the chances of an arab army pushing them back to the original borders are 0
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2004 11:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Palestinians have the benefit of being funded by the Syrians, Iranians and a wide variety of others across the Muslims world, of course not on the scale of US aid to Israel, but they are funded (especially the militants apparently) by many Arab countries.

The Palestinians are using themselves as weapons because thats all they can do? Rubbish IMHO - look at the chaos and heavy casualties being wreaked on the US military by Iraqi militiamen armed with little heavier than a few mortars, and a load of small arms and RPGs. The Palestinians would achieve much greater success in ending Israeli occupation by trying to eject the Israeli army in a similar way, rather than blowing up a bunch of innocents at a hotel or bus stop, which is little more than a political gesture and does nothing to actually eject the Israeli occupiers from the land.

Of course people will cry 'but the Palestinians would be massacred if they tried to fight fair like the Iraqis*', maybe those carrying out such attacks will suffer heavy casualties (but then suicide bombers have an even higher mortality rate than guerilla fighters fighting a massively superior army), but if the palestinian people are subject to more suffering when the Palestinians are manifestly attacking only military targets, then world opinion will swing so far their way its untrue.

But as long as the Palestinians cow awayfrom attacking military targets and continue to kill innocent civilians deliberately and with no question of it being an accident (however horrific), then a large part of the world will continue to see the Palestinians as terrorists rather than freedom fighters, and rightly so as far as I am concerned.

I feel I must clarify when I say I urge the Palestinian militants to 'fight fairer, like the iraqi resistance', what I mean to say is that the armed resistance and ambushes, attacks on military convoys, (excluding the kidnapping of civilians which is abhorrent), and military targets in general, even if by guerilla methods, is to me a slightly fairer and 'non-terrorist' way of fighting an occupying force than killing civilians deliberately.

Basically as I see it there are stages of how legitimate or acceptable an armed resistance can be (no legal boundaries sure, but to me there are moral ones), namely I place 'proper' style combat between armies and resistance groups using guerilla tactics as both being more acceptable forms of fighting an occupying power than deliberately attacking civilians - this action is to me what makes the palestinian fighters terrorists and not freedom fighters.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 23, 2004 12:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would like to know what markj would propose be done to end the violence? Obviously, this situation has been around for a long time, and if it was simple then the solution should be trivial. So I'm waiting for it, ready to send off a nomination for you with the nobel peace prize commitee.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 23, 2004 12:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

well, they BOTH need to stop fighting, if either truly wants peace. also, GW Bush needs to stop supporting Israel's actions. He is doing nothing but creating more animocity towards the US.
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ta-life
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 23, 2004 12:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ok then let them play a capture the flag on Q3

fair doesn't "exist*" for extrimst


msg edited, sorry typping way to fast
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 23, 2004 12:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ta-life wrote:
ok then let them play a capture the flag on Q3

fair doesn't for extrimst


good idea! give them all some pc's, a few online multiplayers, and let them frag each other untill they've got their message across :D
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 23, 2004 12:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not_Much_Sleep wrote:
I would like to know what markj would propose be done to end the violence? Obviously, this situation has been around for a long time, and if it was simple then the solution should be trivial. So I'm waiting for it, ready to send off a nomination for you with the nobel peace prize commitee.


as i said before:

I just hope both sides realise that the real threat to peace is from their own ranks. If both sides can sort out their domestic mess, maybe then its possible to talk about peace again.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 23, 2004 12:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

markj wrote:
suicide bombers (THE single most cowardly act I believe possible)?


Well, I consider such a move really honorable, because if you think about it, the person doing it is willing to give up thier life for a greater cause. They know they won't get to enjoy the possible good outcomes of the move. One thing though, is that many believe they will go striaght to allah if they die fighting for thier country.

I think both sides need to first stop the propoganda machine to stop the war. The main problem is that most people are brainwashed at early ages.
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justanothergentoofanatic
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 23, 2004 12:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

markj wrote:
The Palestinians are using themselves as weapons because thats all they can do? Rubbish IMHO - look at the chaos and heavy casualties being wreaked on the US military by Iraqi militiamen armed with little heavier than a few mortars, and a load of small arms and RPGs.


Erm...where do you think the Iraqi terrorists got their training? What exactly do you think has been going on in the occupied territories for the past 30 years? This is a rather ignorant comment as Hamas has been fighting the Isreali army since before I was born and, judging by their recent successes, they seem to have become rather good at it.


Quote:
The Palestinians would achieve much greater success in ending Israeli occupation by trying to eject the Israeli army in a similar way, rather than blowing up a bunch of innocents at a hotel or bus stop, which is little more than a political gesture and does nothing to actually eject the Israeli occupiers from the land.


A guerilla war has two components. First, make the enemy believe he cannot win. Second, make the enemy believe that the price he pays for war is greater than whatever he will give up by voluntarily making peace.

Small-scale attacks further the first goal and sucicide bombings speak to the second.


Quote:
Attacking inoccent civillians is cowardly. Martin Luther King never used violence.


It it somewhat ironic that you pretend to be an expert in matters of courage while a rather cowardly undercurrent runs through your posts. You don't want to have to suffer any consequences for the actions of your government. But there are plenty of people out there who are going to ensure that, sooner or later, you and your family pay that price. And there is nothing you can do about it.

THAT is the point of terrorism. It's also why it usually works.


Quote:
Palestinians are manifestly attacking only military targets, then world opinion will swing so far their way its untrue.


But the Palestinians already have the overwhelming support of world opinion. Why would they want to change?

-Mike
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 23, 2004 12:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The palestinians will never win with the tactics they are using, violence breads violence, hatred breads hatred. And Isreal would murder the entire plastinian race given the opportunity.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 23, 2004 12:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That fight is 1000s of years old, I choose not to get involved.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 23, 2004 12:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The palestinians will never win with the tactics they are using, violence breads violence, hatred breads hatred.


That's what they said Vietnam, 1965.

Quote:
And Isreal would murder the entire plastinian race given the opportunity.


The Nazis and the Soviets never had any qualms about murder. But they were still unable to crush the resistance and establish control in the regions they occupied.

So, it turns out that your suggestion is harder to implement than you might think. Britain was the only western country to ever defeat a guerilla army, but they became expert at it only after many, many years of bloody struggle.

In any case, I don't think you're right about Isrealis. Isreal is a democracy and I don't believe its people would support genocide under any circumstances. They could have murdered all the Palestinians in 1949, but instead they even let most Arabs return to the country afterwards.

-Mike


Last edited by justanothergentoofanatic on Fri Apr 23, 2004 1:03 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 23, 2004 1:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

justanothergentoofanatic wrote:
Quote:
The palestinians will never win with the tactics they are using, violence breads violence, hatred breads hatred.


That's what they said Vietnam, 1965.

Quote:
And Isreal would murder the entire plastinian race given the opportunity.


The Nazis and the Soviets never had any qualms about murder. But they were still unable to crush the resistance and establish control in the regions they occupied.

So, it turns out that your suggestion is harder to implement than you might think. Britain was the only western country to ever defeat a guerilla army, but they became expert at it only after many, many years of bloody struggle.

-Mike
Defeat? Are you speaking of Sinn Fein? If you believe they are indeed defeated you are poorly judging the situation. I know there is stuff still going on. The nIRA is still heavy with young hateful Irish men. The IRA is <quote> a newer more political organization not prone to violence<unquote> and that is the most ridiculous stuff I have ever heard. The IRA is just as dangerous as it was a couple of decades past.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 23, 2004 1:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

To hell with Israel, and to hell with the Palestinians -- especially the demon-haunted barbarians who blow themselves up on buses. Quite frankly, this fucking bullshit isn't going to end until the United States leaves Israel to stand or fall on its own. No help to either side, no involvement whatsoever. Quite frankly, the entire world should officially forget about that demon-haunted quarter of the world until Israel, the Palestinians, and the friggin Arab nations get their fucking shit together and settle matters one way or the other.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 23, 2004 2:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stormy Eyes wrote:
... the United States leaves Israel to stand or fall on its own. No help to either side, no involvement whatsoever.


Thats right, depraved indifference. Its like hearing your baby in the other room screaming because its sick, and you just roll over figuring it'll either get better, or it'll just die. No big deal, right?

I'm not saying we should be holding their hands, but I don't like the idea of people killing each other over a pos land in the middle of the dessert.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 23, 2004 2:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not_Much_Sleep wrote:
Stormy Eyes wrote:
... the United States leaves Israel to stand or fall on its own. No help to either side, no involvement whatsoever.


Not_Much_Sleep wrote:
Thats right, depraved indifference. Its like hearing your baby in the other room screaming because its sick, and you just roll over figuring it'll either get better, or it'll just die. No big deal, right?


I call bullshit on you. Leaving Israel to solve its own problems is nothing like ignoring a baby's cries. Or are you actually presumptuous enough to compare millions of adults capable of rational thought to a baby that acts mainly on instinct?

Not_Much_Sleep wrote:
I'm not saying we should be holding their hands, but I don't like the idea of people killing each other over a pos land in the middle of the dessert.


Nor do I. But the US' current policy doesn't fucking work. And I doubt you'd like the solution I was tempted to suggest before I decided not to be an asshole: kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out.

Quite frankly, it should be the UK that should be dealing with Israel -- they created the whole mess by caving in to the Zionists after WWII and giving part of their protectorate to make a "Jewish homeland" that hasn't existed since before Rome took the place for a province.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 23, 2004 2:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I dont believe in any resolution of the conflict, it will end when they all kill each other.
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