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Nicom
Guru
Joined: 30 Jan 2003
Posts: 380
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 Posted: Fri Apr 23, 2004 7:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Deathwing00 wrote: |
One more thing, Serbia was invaded by NATO because of doing the same as Israel. The ones with power kill the defenseless ones. So why isn't US intervening on the situation and put Sharon and his government to be judged for crimes?
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Obviously because the USA vetoes everything relating to israel in the UN, the key is to change america, they are the ones keeping israel free of consequence. An the two reasons for that are;
1) Many christian americans have been maneuvered into a new crusade against islam, thus they will side with israel religiously.
2) The Jewish minority in america are very influencial in both political parties. |
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zephyr1256
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Joined: 10 Mar 2003
Posts: 170
Location: Kingsport, TN
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| Posted: Fri Apr 23, 2004 8:20 pm Post subject: Re: thoughts on Israel and Palestine |
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| markj wrote: | The Palastinians are utterly idiotic - have they not seen what happens? They blow up a bus and kill 10 people, Israel buldozers their houses and launches rocket attacks on their settlements, killing many more.
To be honest, it is the way to deal with terrorists and I totally agree. When the terrorists abide by the Geneva convension then fair enough, let's all play by that rule. But when you face an enemy who will murder your children in cold blood then you have to act appropriatley. This is not condoning out and out murder, but the heavy handed tactics of the Israeli government don't seem to deter the suicide bombers (THE single most cowardly act I believe possible) so what would happen if they took the European sort of line? |
The critical flaw in your reasoning here is talking about "The Palestinians" when you really should be talking about terrorist organizations. "The Palestinians" are a population, one that does not choose to kill innocent Israelis, but one that will have some percentage that is(quite rightly) angered by the actions of the Israeli government, and the more of those people there are, the easier time the terrorist organizations will have recruiting people to blow themselves up.
It's also inherently illogical to say on the one hand that Israel's responses are the correct ones, and then turn around and say that those policies do not deter terrorists and suicide bombers (which is to say they do not promote peace, which should be the goal).
The correct policy is one that will reduce sympathies for the causes of the terrorists amongst the Palestinian people. It won't work overnight, and they will have to make concessions and 'turn the other cheek' so to speak for possibly and extended period of time(possibly even a decade or three). But if the Palestinians are treated with dignity, given economic opportunities, and allowed autonomy and sovereignty, then the terrorist cause would die. I think that is the only way peace and justice can be acheived, and unfortunately, I don't think it is very likely to happen in the forseeable future.
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The Congress shall have power...To promote the progress of science and useful arts, by securing for limited times to authors and inventors the exclusive right to their respective writings and discoveries; --U.S. Constitution. Article 1, Section 8. |
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thm
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 15 Dec 2003
Posts: 77
Location: Munich
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| Posted: Fri Apr 23, 2004 9:04 pm Post subject: Re: thoughts on Israel and Palestine |
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| zephyr1256 wrote: | | The correct policy is one that will reduce sympathies for the causes of the terrorists amongst the Palestinian people. ... But if the Palestinians are treated with dignity, given economic opportunities, and allowed autonomy and sovereignty, then the terrorist cause would die. I think that is the only way peace and justice can be acheived, and unfortunately, I don't think it is very likely to happen in the forseeable future. |
I agree that current Israeli policy is not headed for peace. But neither ist that of Hamas (At least for the moment, there doesn't seem to be such a thing as a Palestinian policy). The conflict has long reached a point where it is no longer important to ask who is (more) at fault.
Even if an independent Palestine were created tomorrow, this would probably not suffice to bring about peace. The heart of the matter is that both sides want the same thing: Jerusalem. And neither side is willing to give it up. Each side claims a "historical right". Both are afraid to make concessions, fearing that the other side will somehow take advantage of it.
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The Ennead
Apprentice
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Posts: 157
Location: Red Half Of Manchester, UK
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| Posted: Fri Apr 23, 2004 10:32 pm Post subject: |
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I haven't read the three pages as yet since i've only just got in from work so sorry if any of this has been said before. Anyway, what parts I did read to me just seem to show a complete lack of understanding not only of the situation but of human nature.
The question of what should be done and who should do it is being looked at as if it's somebody out to buy a house or something. "Ah well that one has double-glazing so it must be the better option". 
The question of stopping the cycle of violence lies squarely and solely with the Israeli government and its supporters. That idea may not be appreciated in some quarters but is based on the simple and irrefutable fact that the greater strength or power resides with them.
Scenario: Israel is left on its own with no backing from outside and continues to implement current policies. What happens? As a nation it will be wiped off the face of the map. The only thing that would prevent that from happening is if Israel was to respond to the overwhelming threat that it would face by going nuclear, and that would just wipe out the whole region ..not exactly a solution. Despite its superiority in conventional weapons, the forces it would face would be overwhelming and defeat or annihilation would be almost inevitable.
That scenario is unlikely to happen because of the backing Israel receives from primarily the US, but also other nations such as the UK. The US doesn't give a shit so it uses veto, the UK and others are too scared to stick their neck out so they just abstain. Whilst Israel receives such unconditional backing they are not likely to be threatened in any way as it gives a situation not disimilar to that found in a school yard where a small bully can call the tune because he has a 6ft tall brother stood behind him armed with a piece of 2 by 4. And so, Israel has the green light to do whatever it wants, whenever it wants.
As for the terrorists, they have little choice in the matter. The situation controls them and not the other way around. I'm no terrorist and would more likely be called a peace activist but if, as an example, somebody killed my 4 year old with tear gas, then i'm sorry but I would go out and kill as many people as I could possibly find and wouldn't stop until they killed me.
The same could be said looking at it from an Israeli perspective. There are after all, plenty of Israelis who have been killed by Palestinian terrorists and within that no doubt are other four year old girls but, the question still remains. If the Palestinians stop then Israel will continue in the same way and in the eyes of the terrorist this is a simple equation, if he stops he dies a slow death, if he continues, he dies, but at least he died fighting and with a chance of victory, no matter how small it was.
The only way to stop terrorism therefore, is to remove the causes of terrorism. You have to deal with the situation and in the case of Israel and Palestine, there is only Israel which has the capability to deal with it.
Defeating terrorism is not about individuals, and it's not about going out and killing people or invading lands. Hypothetically speaking, if you kill one person on either side, you will find two who will take their place. If you kill those two you will find four, and so on until there is no one left. For that reason current Israeli government policy is on a course for genocide because until someone sits down to talk it will continue. With great power comes great responsibility and the only one can bring about peace is the one who is strongest, by leading the way, no matter how painful that may be. |
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SmegTheLight
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 05 Jul 2002
Posts: 97
Location: 3rd Planet
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| Posted: Fri Apr 23, 2004 11:06 pm Post subject: |
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| paranode wrote: |
Except that the dumbass suicide bombers won't stay in their own country, so nobody can avoid them. |
They would probably gladly stay in their own country.
Maybe everyone should do a bit of research into why this all started in the first place ?
http://www.un.org/Depts/dpa/ngo/history.html
| History of the Palestine Problem wrote: |
After looking at various alternatives, the UN proposed the partitioning of Palestine into two independent States, one Palestinian Arab and the other Jewish, with Jerusalem internationalized (Resolution 181 (II) of 1947). One of the two States envisaged in the partition plan proclaimed its independence as Israel and in the 1948 war expanded to occupy 77 per cent of the territory of Palestine. Israel also occupied the larger part of Jerusalem. Over half the indigenous Palestinian population fled or were expelled. Jordan and Egypt occupied the other parts of the territory assigned by the partition resolution to the Palestinian Arab State which did not come into being.
In the 1967 war, Israel occupied the remaining territory of Palestine, until then under Jordanian and Egyptian control (the West Bank and Gaza Strip). This included the remaining part of Jerusalem, which was subsequently annexed by Israel. The war brought about a second exodus of Palestinians, estimated at half a million. Security Council resolution 242 (1967) of 22 November 1967 called on Israel to withdraw from territories it had occupied in the 1967 conflict.
In 1974, the General Assembly reaffirmed the inalienable rights of the Palestinian people to self-determination, national independence and sovereignty, and to return. The following year, the General Assembly established the Committee on the Exercise of the Inalienable Rights of the Palestinian People. The General Assembly conferred on the PLO the status of observer in the Assembly and in other international conferences held under United Nations auspices.
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Sounds like the solution would be for Israel to give the friggen land BACK. Iraq was forced to give back Kuwait - why is this different ?
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As far as I'm concerned, any group that resorts to deliberately killing women and children deserves no mercy whatsoever; they're nothing but barbarians and animals.
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- They target whoever they can get to. They would probably love to take out all the people in the tank that killed their brother, instead of the daily bus they take to their slave job in the occupied territory
- When you elect your government, only those who can't vote are innocent.
- Military service in Israel was mandatory, beginning at age eighteen, for male and female citizens and resident aliens.
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riis
n00b
Joined: 28 Aug 2003
Posts: 63
Location: Aalborg, Denmark
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| Posted: Sat Apr 24, 2004 7:59 am Post subject: |
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| solomonHk wrote: | | riis wrote: | | I think the Us should stop funding the Israeli military, a strong effort should be put in stop weapons from flowing in to Palestine (although hardly any weapons do currently) and then we should set in a UN force the size Ariel Sharons ass. And then just stay there for 10 years or so. Then they've probably gotten used to living whereever they live and then maybe stop shooting each other.... |
1.) the use does not fund the isreali army anymore.
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http://fpc.state.gov/documents/organization/21117.pdf
Maybe I'm reading this wrong, or maybe there have been some updates later. But it seems to me US FMF is alive and kicking!
And I agree with a lot of what The Ennead just posted....
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Bodhisattva
Joined: 25 Jul 2002
Posts: 1663
Location: Berlin
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