Initial feedback and questions on using Gentoo

milstead · n00b Joined: 03 Feb 2004 Posts: 10 Location: Bristol, UK

I use Windows and Linux every day. I prefer Linux but I have to use Windows for development.

I support a lot of computers for work, friends and family. I prefer to give them Linux because the computer remains the way I set it up and is fairly 'fiddle' proof. Yes, it takes a bit longer than Windows to install but its worth it in the long run - not having to reinstall every so often!

I try to give my 'guinea pigs' a simple Windows like feel - using Icewm and a set of low bloat applications. Supermount is essential because users can't get their head round '(u)mount' (and why should they?)

Ever since Redhat started mucking around with GNOME/KDE and especially since they moved their free stuff to Fedora I have been looking for another Linux Distro.

Here is a brief run down of my experience.

Redhat 9 - Getting old but at least I understand it!
Mandrake 9.2 - Easy. Buggy and I didn't like it taking over my WM menus. Supermount was good though. Becoming less and less free?
Debain - Very good but out of date unless you go to testing or unstable which then makes it buggy. apt-get was good. Very free.
SuSE - not free.
Fedora - Buggyish, apt-rpm good for adding packages - if they exist. Less easy to admin than Debian but more up to date and easier to install (initially). Installing packages from source was a pain because rpm doesn't always add pkg-config files for newly installed libraries.

So its onto Gentoo. I liked the look of emerge, the large number of packages and the availablity of supermount.

My feedback and questions:

I tried various install methods. The documentation is very good but as they say the process is not for the feint hearted. I tried stage 1 (took too long), stage 3 with GRP (update took for ever and seemed buggy) and I have settled with stage2. On the whole Gentoo feels like a powerful and well put together distro. I had a few problems e.g. the whole gcc 3.2.3 thing (solved) and I currently have a X crash in another forum, but I am prepared to stick with it.

This leads me to my only problem with gentoo:

Speed of install. I know this must have been covered a thousand times but here is my 2 cents worth...

Given the large number of machines I admin I can't afford a weeks wait every time I want to install an OS. I often find myself with just a weekend to install a system. Is it possible to install and upgrade gentoo like debian using binary packages? I tried GRP off the CD but this is quite out of date and the update took ages. Are there servers which provide binary packages for the various distributions (e.g. PPC, Pentium III, AMD Athlon XP etc) using a default set of USE flags? I know this would take up quite a bit of space but it would be nice to download binaries of the latest packages. I don't need the speed of a specialy compiled program half as much as I need speed of install and update.

Even if I can't do this I will probably stick with Gentoo for home and work, but I'll have to look at other distros for the other machines in my life!

P.S. A point and click install wizard would be nice but not essential.

Opinions/help?

Tim.

mrhodes · Guru Joined: 01 May 2002 Posts: 310 Location: Halifax, NS

Hello, I'm not 100% sure as I haven't used this, but look in the
-k or --usepkg option for emerge....

I think that will download and install binaries... but like I said, I'm not certain....

can anyone correct me if I'm wrong?
_________________
Michael Rhodes
Tiger Studios Entertainment
http://www.tigerstudios.net

ecatmur · Posted: Sat Feb 28, 2004 11:52 pm Post subject:

It will, but there aren't any binaries to download. There's enough on the mirrors already without a hundred different flavours of binary package (arch, CFLAGS, USE flags...)

If you have a relatively homogeneous environment, you can generate binary packages for use across the environment using emerge -b or quickpkg.

milstead · n00b Joined: 03 Feb 2004 Posts: 10 Location: Bristol, UK

I see your point. After all I'm not paying for the storage space or the bandwidth. I just noted that Gentoo people are keen to get Gentoo used more. I think that having precompiled binaries would make a big difference to many people. You wouldn't have to put in any more than half a dozen lowest common denominator varients.

As an asside perhpas it is worth having a sort of distributed Gentoo binary download network. It could be made up of various servers that are automatically selected to be compatible with a persons architecture.

Another possibility is to have very few binary package varients available e.g. i686 and then have a cron job that optimises the computer over night etc.

Just storming (I decided the brain part might be a bit too hopeful).

Tim.

ewan.paton · Posted: Sun Feb 29, 2004 2:38 am Post subject:

if you admin lots of machines use distcc to buils the packages fast with melow flags like i686 and have buildpkg set in then make.conf then either use a network or burn a cd of the binaries and transfer the packages to the next pc.

the only reason the grp is so out of date is the next snapshot is due realy soon, like the next couple of days if the deadlines are folowed
_________________
Giay tay nam | Giay nam cao cap | Giay luoi

michaelb · Posted: Mon Mar 01, 2004 4:32 pm Post subject:

FWIW, if you are still interested in checking out binary based distros, you might want to give Slackware a look.
_________________
Behold, The power of SEARCH!

shm · Posted: Mon Mar 01, 2004 4:40 pm Post subject:

The best thing about gentoo is that it is whatever you want it to be.

thrasher6670 · Posted: Mon Mar 01, 2004 5:07 pm Post subject:

well this has been covered many times, but here i go again:

what makes gentoo *special* is that it does compile from source, for those that belive this makes it special because everything runs faster, no sorry thats not it. althou the local compiling of th packages does make for a faster program it is marginal at best. so why is compiling from source so grad? you ask, well many many programs when compiled from source offer options, features and "cool stuff" when compiled from source, you can disable/enable these features. but in the real world most of us do no know how to change these settings, gentoo provides releif with the USE flags; there are tons of USE flags that allow you to make your system whatever you want it to be, and this can only practically work with a source based distro (or you just end up with too many binaries).

Shameless plug: http://gentoo-portage.com/use.php can provide you with a nice list of use flags, and what packages they affect for those interested.

I have also seen many threads related to large scale usage of gentoo, servers and desktops. there are several options for these people:
1. ghosting: this only works if you have a limited number of machine types, you can simply make one version then multicast it over the network.
2. a packaging system: create one machine use flags such as i686 and dont bother with any real CFLAG optimisations, then use emerge -b and distribute these over the network, no compiling, no fuss.
3. have a cron run nightly on each machine: have a script conect to a server nightly while your gone, download the command(s) that need to be run that night and run them (emerge sync; emerge something_new), this one i do not reccomend for any type of server.
4. the lazy way: only install security updates and major version changes. you do not *need* 1.2.55 of a program you already have 1.2.53 of, and you definitly dont need to umgrade from 1.2.55-r1 to 1.2.55-r2 if it installed properly.
5. (this relates to installing only), make your base working system with generic flags, use genkernel (I know i hate it too), then simply copy the dirve contents over to the new system, it will work with little effort seriously.

combine those as you wish. one thing gentoo is lacking as a program(s) to do any of this with ease (or perhaps i just havent found one). I wouldent mind helping out on such a project.
_________________
Gentoo-Portage.com - Where the portage meets the web
Gentoo Wiki

aridhol · Posted: Mon Mar 01, 2004 7:38 pm Post subject:

thrasher6670 · Posted: Mon Mar 01, 2004 7:54 pm Post subject:

Well for a program, i was more thinking something along the lines of a client-server program. you install it on the client and it connects to teh server. this would save you having to shh to each box and run a command(s) to get your newly made packages installed. perhaps something that could automate and keep track of what packages have been updated on each system etc.
_________________
Gentoo-Portage.com - Where the portage meets the web
Gentoo Wiki

aridhol · Posted: Mon Mar 01, 2004 9:00 pm Post subject: