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galoisjr
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 12:29 am    Post subject: The Gentoo Experience Reply with quote

I don't pretend to be a computing expert, or Linux expert, having just installed Gentoo a couple of days ago. Operating systems are like women, especially in the Linux world. You go from one to another until you finally find the one that just gets you. I'm sad to say that I have yet to find the one. Like many Linux users, I have moved from one to the other looking for the one.

In order of importance:

The one that requires work, that inspires you to be better:
This is where Gentoo excels. In the past couple of days I have learned so many things about the computer I am using. Things that Windows or Ubuntu could never teach me. It may be a lot of work, but so far everything is very straightforward. It also helps that I am a quick study. No woman, or human being for that matter, is ever truly completely satisfied, but with Gentoo, it will always push you to learn more about it ...

With the inspiration that you get from her, she forces you to learn more about you, and you want to. To succeed in this endeavor you need to know what to do and when to do it. So, you need...

The one that is well documented, that is easy to communicate with:
The documentation and support on Gentoo is phenomenal. If you do a google search for any given Windows issue, or even Ubuntu issue, you will results so convoluted it will take you hours to find a solution that fits your problem with your specific hardware. However, in Gentoo usually the first link is all you need to check, almost definitely only the first page of links. Not only that, the documentation is always very concise while also telling you exactly what to do and why you need to do it. It is so amazing in that regard, and this is why I love it. No woman will ever tell you exactly what's on her mind, but with Gentoo, most of the time, it will tell you exactly what's wrong...

With good communication between you and her, you can solve any problem that you come to. To solve your problems you need to be able to modify the system to the problem at hand and to your specific needs in a way in which the path to solution is clear. So you need...

The one that is completely configurable, that will try to please you in any way that you deem fit:
This is the philosophy of Gentoo. Windows is... well it's Windows, while Ubuntu attempts do this but it falls a little bit short because it tries to be automatically configured for all hardware. Gentoo lets you modify it however you wish. Enough said. No woman will ever be able to fulfill your every desire, but with Gentoo, the ability to at least try to is always at your fingertips...

With the desire to suit your needs and please you, a solution becomes more attainable if it exists. To configure the operating system to your specific base, you need to be able to download and install programs and update with relative ease. So, you need...

The one that has incredible functionality, that you can do anything you want to do when you need to do it:
In regard to functionality, Gentoo succeeds in every way but one. Windows will let you install what you want,fairly quickly but most of the time, fails to take dependency issues into consideration, more times than not creating a highly unstable system. Ubuntu is quick and considers dependencies but the apt-get is not perfect in fully dependable in terms of resolving dependency issues. Gentoo fully takes into account dependency through portage and compiles programs to your specific needs, but it is UNBEARABLY slow sometimes even taking days when doing a system-wide update. This is it's downfall. No woman will ever move at your pace, because a good woman should be waited on...


Windows is the whore, obviously everyone has used her, and anyone can whenever they want. Ubuntu is that girl that's easy to acquire, the mainstream one, the one that you think you want, but in reality it always leaves you wanting more from it, the one that you have to settle for. On the other hand, Gentoo is the girl that you REALLY want and always put on a pedestal because she requires so much work that you find yourself wondering if it's actually worth it, but it's more likely that she was always too good for you in one way or another.

The only thing that holds Gentoo back is the time required to compile source code. If there wasn't such a vast difference in time to install a program on Gentoo versus that of other operating systems, I guarantee you that Gentoo could compete with and probably dominate Windows and especially Ubuntu. There would be no comparison, especially from the point of view of the people who are really interested in computing.

So, I'm going to end this with a question...

Are there any other Distros which retain the good qualities of Gentoo, with package managers that retain the sophistication of Portage while speeding up the process, and not sacrificing dependency?

OR

Are there any other package managers that can be used in Gentoo that do this?

OR

Are Gentoo developers at least trying to find a way to speed up Portage?
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John R. Graham
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 12:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Portage is almost completely not at fault. Portage runs the packages' provided build systems and the builds take the time that they take, predominantly in compiling. It's really just the nature of a source-based distribution.

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LoTeK
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 1:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

!!! epic post !!!!
what I don't understand is that people always complaining about long compile times... I've read that one needs 6 days to install a working gentoo with X - server, but my last install took maybe 2 or 3 hours...
and except for chromium (maybe it was 3 to 4 hours) even compiling programs don't take long...
but I thought you can also install binaries with portage if you want, but man, after your epic post you can't move away from gentoo or from compiling source code... :D to talk your language: to compile packages is like if you could tune every single part of the wonderwoman's body and even to decide what clothes she should ware :D
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 1:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My first kernel sources download took 12 hours, compiling it took 14 hours. The box was a 40 MHz i486, 33.6 kbit/s modem was considered fast. Now, what are you complaining about, again?
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 4:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

To understand the speed of portage better you can try paludis
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 6:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

well said

you might find Arch Linux interesting in regards to package managment, but their dependencies have got fatter in recent years and maintaining a larger set of custom system packages built with their build system is very hard in comparisson with gentoo.

Arch may also not suit your needs, because you may not like a woman that blindly follows trends just because she thinks they are modern or 1337

I recommend you set up a distc host and upgrade your system overnight.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 7:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe you should try Sabayon if you don't want to compile.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 6:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pkgcore is lightning fast at dependency resolution, which is where portage is slow. None of that changes what others have mentioned: you're building from source, so it's going to take ages compared to a binary distro.

There's two things that can mitigate that: use a binhost which you can provide yourself if you use FEATURES=buildpkg.

update helps by allowing use of more than one binhost, a bit like overlays, so earlier ones listed are used first if they have the package, which is useful if you want to install quickly from those two, plus perhaps an internal one.

It's really quite weird watching a Gentoo install from binpkgs (we had to do lots in chroots to get that working): there's an odd feeling that it's not quite right, the way things install so quickly ;)
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 8:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

galoisjr,

Welcome to Gentoo.

I hope my wife never reads your post :)
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galoisjr
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2012 8:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@John: That was my bad. I didn't mean to make it sound like it was an actual problem with Gentoo or Portage, just what makes it take a lot of time. My point was that Portage places more emphasis on quality than quickness.

@LoTeK: I am the exact same way. I don't understand why people complain. I wasn't actually complaining. I was just suggesting that if it were faster that Gentoo would easily compete with the mainstream like Windows. I think you are the only person who got that out of what I said. And there is no way I am switching from Gentoo in the foreseeable future, so don't worry :P. I'm glad you liked my post and I definitely appreciate your reply.

@Jaglover: I am not going to act like I know what that is like, but I do remember MS DOS from when I was little, and, also, I remember 56k from when I was about 10. That was my first taste of the internet. I remember how a song that was 4mb took about 20 min to download. So, although I don't feel your pain, I can relate... I'm not THAT young as to not appreciate how far computing has come :P

@Cynede: I heard about Paludis. I wanted to try it out, because everything that I read about it said that it was faster and better written than portage. But most of what I have read was on the Paludis site, so it was probably a little bit biased. As for the speed of Portage vs. Paludis now, I have done google searches and haven't been able to come up with any posts on the subject that weren't at least a 2couple of years old.

@smartass: I actually wanted to try Arch before I dove into Gentoo. I had problems with the installation. I have been avid about getting into hardcore Linux for awhile just haven't had the time. All of my friends were telling me that they didn't understand how I could have problems with Arch and none at all with Gentoo. The problem with Arch is that although it's documentation is very good, it is nowhere near that of Gentoo. I like to learn, and like I said, I'm a quick study. I have to be, being a mathematics and physics major in college, but math is my preferred area of study. The thing is, Gentoo documentation compared to Arch documentation is like comparing a math book to a physics book. Gentoo documentaion is more like a math book. It tells you what to do and why to do it, explanations are very logical and straightforward. Arch documentation is a little more hand wavy.

@d2_racing: I'm sorry if I made it seem like I was dissing the compiling phase. That's not at all what I was meaning to do. I was just saying that if it didn't take so long to compile that Gentoo could easily compete with the mainstream operating systems. Having said that, I did look into Sabayon. Doing so is actually what turned me onto diving into Gentoo. The thing that I didn't like about Sabayon (although I may be wrong) is that it seemed like it came pre-configured. That is something that I wanted to do myself.

@steveL: I heard about PKGcore, but I can't seem to find any documentation or posts on it that aren't a couple of years old. I was under the impression that it had been discontinued. Is there anything that you can tell me about it? And I'll look into using a binhost. One quick question though... If you're using a binhost do you have to manually deal with dependency issues?

@NeddySeagoon: LOL if your wife is a Gentoo user, and is on this forum, then that is awesome. KUDOS. I don't know many women who even know what Linux is.


Thanks for all the responses. I hope this reply clarified anything in my original post that people may or may not have had qualms with. As for my Gentoo setup, so far I feel pretty accomplished. I got KDE up and running within a day, the only reason why it took so long is compiling, which I had to let it do overnight. And within a day after that I had everything from my wireless networking to my touchpad working. I'm doing all of this and learning how to program in C at the same time (I already know Python and a little C++). So, where do I go from here now that I have everything up and running?


Last edited by galoisjr on Mon Dec 24, 2012 9:05 pm; edited 2 times in total
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galoisjr
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2012 8:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh and by the way, I'm glad that so many people liked my first post. You guys can expect plenty more of these from me as I continue my Linux and Gentoo education :D
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2012 9:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, about the compilation stuff, right now I have a CoreI7 3770k, so basically I don't have any problem with the compilation time :P
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