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azambuja
Apprentice
Joined: 12 Jul 2002
Posts: 257
Location: Porto Alegre, RS, Brazil
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 Posted: Wed Aug 07, 2002 11:56 pm Post subject: main difference between portage and apt-get |
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hello,
a friend of mine, which uses debian asked me the main difference between portage and apt-get...
i told him that portage compiles the stuff, while apt-get installs the binary files...
am i right? are there other relevant differences?
thanx/cheers |
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delta407
Bodhisattva
Joined: 23 Apr 2002
Posts: 2876
Location: Chicago, IL
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| Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2002 12:57 am Post subject: |
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Well, that and Portage specifies compile-time settings of your choice, including ./configure options and compiler flags. And it's compiled for your CPU, rather than a decrepit 386.
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azambuja
Apprentice
Joined: 12 Jul 2002
Posts: 257
Location: Porto Alegre, RS, Brazil
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| Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2002 1:42 am Post subject: |
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since youre a very experienced guy(seems to by the number of posts, and powerful by your avatar, hehehe), ive a question...
when gentoo 1.4 comes out with gcc3.1 will it be necessary to do a new installation from scratch again or will a emerge rsync or something like this be enough (like it was from 1.1 to 1.2) ?
thanx/cheers |
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delta407
Bodhisattva
Joined: 23 Apr 2002
Posts: 2876
Location: Chicago, IL
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| Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2002 2:41 am Post subject: |
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Not just an emerge rsync, and the transition will (AFAIK) be optional for quite some time. Basically, the drill is to recompile everything (emerge -e world), give it a while, and suddenly everything is using GCC3.
Of course, it will likely be slightly more involved, but I wouldn't worry too much about it.
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mksoft
l33t
Joined: 28 May 2002
Posts: 844
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| Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2002 8:34 am Post subject: |
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Looks like 1.4 is gonna use gcc3.2 not 3.1.
I also think the profile should be changed when upgrading (in /etc/make.profile) to use gcc3.
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CoronaLover
Retired Dev
Joined: 20 Jun 2002
Posts: 163
Location: Rosh-ha'ayin, Israel
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| Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2002 8:45 am Post subject: |
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And you need to bootstrap again  |
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mksoft
l33t
Joined: 28 May 2002
Posts: 844
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| Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2002 8:50 am Post subject: Re: main difference between portage and apt-get |
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| azambuja wrote: | hello,
a friend of mine, which uses debian asked me the main difference between portage and apt-get...
i told him that portage compiles the stuff, while apt-get installs the binary files...
am i right? are there other relevant differences?
thanx/cheers |
One more advantage is fine-graining. In debain you're bound to the dependencies as defined by the package maintainer. For example of you're gonna install vim, libgpm is gonna be installed as well.
With Gentoo you can set "-gpm" in your USE flags and vim will build without it.
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abhishek
Retired Dev
Joined: 28 Jun 2002
Posts: 393
Location: Los Angeles, CA
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| Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2002 8:54 am Post subject: Re: main difference between portage and apt-get |
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| mksoft wrote: | | azambuja wrote: | hello,
a friend of mine, which uses debian asked me the main difference between portage and apt-get...
i told him that portage compiles the stuff, while apt-get installs the binary files...
am i right? are there other relevant differences?
thanx/cheers |
One more advantage is fine-graining. In debain you're bound to the dependencies as defined by the package maintainer. For example of you're gonna install vim, libgpm is gonna be installed as well.
With Gentoo you can set "-gpm" in your USE flags and vim will build without it. |
Also, you can add whatever p[ackages you want to the portage tree, and you can do whatever you want to ebuilds that exist(Useful for getitng minor new revs of progs before the ebuilds come out). |
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CoronaLover
Retired Dev
Joined: 20 Jun 2002
Posts: 163
Location: Rosh-ha'ayin, Israel
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| Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2002 8:55 am Post subject: |
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| Also the runlevel system in gentoo is very good IMHO |
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abhishek
Retired Dev
Joined: 28 Jun 2002
Posts: 393
Location: Los Angeles, CA
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| Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2002 8:59 am Post subject: |
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| Hmm, think this is getting kinda OT. |
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CoronaLover
Retired Dev
Joined: 20 Jun 2002
Posts: 163
Location: Rosh-ha'ayin, Israel
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| Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2002 9:02 am Post subject: |
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Oops sorry my mistake, forgot it was about portage only.  |
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Evangelion
Veteran
Joined: 31 May 2002
Posts: 1087
Location: Helsinki, Finland
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| Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2002 11:33 am Post subject: |
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| Now, correct me if I'm wrong (I'm not yet running Gentoo). In Debian, if I install app A and it requires app B, it will install it automatically. If I then try to remove app B it will complain that app A depends on it. To my knowledge, Gentoo doesn't have this feature. Any idea when it will have it? |
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therobot
Apprentice
Joined: 07 Jun 2002
Posts: 256
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2002 6:44 pm Post subject: |
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| I installed Debian a while ago, and the first thing I did was an apt-get install fluxbox, figuring that it would grab everything i needed, such as X. To my dismay it didn't. It was only a matter of apt-get install x-window-system, but still.... |
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pjp
Administrator
Joined: 16 Apr 2002
Posts: 20067
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| Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2002 6:49 pm Post subject: |
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I beleive it is referred to as 'evolution'. Maybe 5 years after potato is final, debian will switch to portage.
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mdpye
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 18 Apr 2002
Posts: 102
Location: Nottingham, England
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| Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2002 7:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Evangelion wrote: | | Now, correct me if I'm wrong (I'm not yet running Gentoo). In Debian, if I install app A and it requires app B, it will install it automatically. If I then try to remove app B it will complain that app A depends on it. To my knowledge, Gentoo doesn't have this feature. Any idea when it will have it? |
I believe reverse dependancy mapping (as it is known) is the next big feature in protage development. However, it is a *big* feature.
Don't let it stop you trying Gentoo, it's never been a problem for me. Besides, you can simply remerge the missing package...
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n0n
Guru
Joined: 13 Jun 2002
Posts: 355
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| Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2002 8:59 pm Post subject: |
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Debian's apt system is a little more complex than what's found in Portage. Packages exist in a number of states: Not Installed, Marked to be Installed, Installed but not Configured, Installed and Configured, etc . . . Also the dependency resolution in apt is very cool. For instance, if you mark two packages for installation that conflict with each other inside the utility "dselect," it'll pop up and offer you a solution to the invalid dependency. Or when you select a package for installation that "recommends" other packages, it'll let you know about that, too, and let you select what you want. Then once you have things "marked" for installation, you can basically "install all pending packages." If things didn't get configured, you can also do "configure all non-configured packages" yet. It's a much more stateful approach than what Portage has.
That said, I really don't miss it at all. If you've got unresolved conflicts in the apt system, it basically won't let you install ANYTHING until the conflicts have been resolved (or at least that's been my experience - and to their credit there are functions to automatically fix problems in the dependency tree). Some of the strict dependencies can be a bit annoying. And occasionally it gets rather difficult to figure out what's installed, what's marked for installation, etc, etc, etc.
Also, I believe that apt can be used to retrieve/compile source, but I've never used it to do so. |
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rac
Bodhisattva
Joined: 30 May 2002
Posts: 6553
Location: Japanifornia
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| Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2002 9:04 pm Post subject: |
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| n0n wrote: | | Also, I believe that apt can be used to retrieve/compile source, but I've never used it to do so. |
True; "apt-get source" to retrieve, add "--compile" to use dpkg-buildpackage to compile also. Gentoo has the ability to reuse source tarballs for different revisions of an ebuild, if the upstream version is identical. I am not aware of a similar mechanism in apt.
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flaw3d
n00b
Joined: 07 Aug 2002
Posts: 20
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| Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2002 1:10 am Post subject: |
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| The main benefit (as I see it) of portage is its a lot more updated, not to mention produces faster, more efficient resulting binaries. |
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Evangelion
Veteran
Joined: 31 May 2002
Posts: 1087
Location: Helsinki, Finland
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| Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2002 7:47 am Post subject: |
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| mdpye wrote: | | Don't let it stop you trying Gentoo, it's never been a problem for me. Besides, you can simply remerge the missing package... |
That's not stopping me from moving to Gentoo  ! I have already decided to move away from Debian to Gentoo (I'm sick and tired of Debian sitting on their hands when it comes to certain apps. How about that Xfree 4.2 and KDE3? It's been close to 6 months already  !). I have spent my time reading the Gentoo installation instructions and reading the forums. I have decided that when the next version of Gento shipps (with the new GCC), I will make the switch . |
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azambuja
Apprentice
Joined: 12 Jul 2002
Posts: 257
Location: Porto Alegre, RS, Brazil
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| Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2002 10:00 pm Post subject: |
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hello,
after a lot of discussion with my friend ive realised the following:
the main difference between both is UP-to-DATE. He told me debian is still using KDE 2??? whats that all about? kde3 is only available in the unstable version... what do they mean by stability? should we go to only text mode and kernel 1.0 for the MOST SECURE STABILITY EVER?
i really dont get that much and im really happy with my KDE 3.02, GNOME 2 in my Gentoo... oh and never forgetting that if tomorrow KDE4 is realeased i'll just have to open a terminal and type : emerge kde
cheers |
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arkane
l33t
Joined: 30 Apr 2002
Posts: 918
Location: Phoenix, AZ
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| Posted: Wed Aug 14, 2002 1:23 am Post subject: |
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Debian has always been known to use (old?) stable software that has had the time to be tried and true.
At least the stable branch is that way. As far as unstable and testing, thats a different story. I do know that the unstable branch has quite a few apps that are nice. However, the trade-off is that they haven't been ran through the ringer like stable has.
I personally like gentoo and emerge utility because of the straight forward nature of it, and the fact that it brings source down as it's primary purpose. I know you can do that with apt, but portage just seems easier.
I use debian on my server beside me, because Gentoo Sparc is just not mature enough for my needs. I used to use almost primarily, until they started lagging behind on almost everything technological. |
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sp00ky
n00b
Joined: 14 Aug 2002
Posts: 4
Location: Porto Alegre, Brazil
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| Posted: Wed Aug 14, 2002 2:16 am Post subject: |
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debian can be used to get the sources and compile it like emerge. all you have to do is to add a source (site) that contains the sources from all packages in your configurations files and apt-get them. and them do an auto-apt to compile it.
about the old and stable releases, many persons don't want to change their desktops if they are working well and no *significant* changes have been made to make worth the work of downloading and installing them. and some people would stability and functional. and if the debian packages thinks that a newer release don't make it, it'll not be available in the stable release because every new release has many dependencies and many packages needs to be updated. this, sometimes, can broke a system and things *maybe* will not work.
and, if you want some new releases, you're addicted to then like azambuja (i'm his friend), you have the option to add to your sources some unstables sites, which can be provided by some communities or debian packagers (who signed the debian social contract), or even a hack site. so you can add this packages to your debian using the apt-get feature.
debian released in version 3.0r0 compiled kernel images to most recent processors like athlon, k6, pIII and pII. the 'odd' label to debian is not aplicable to all things, and, in my opinion, it's quite good to have control under what you're installing and if it's tested or not, if it'll not broke any other library or app. this, is the debian miracle 
hope i clear the things about debian. i'm really enjoy it. HP chooses it after a large study, and it makes me more excited with debian. i'll consider installing gentoo just in the next release. the idea is great, but i'm can't waste time downloading sources and waste more time yet compiling them. *stable* servers have the same problems, and debian *stable* fit my and their needs. that's it.
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sp00ky
Debian GNU/Linux 3.0r0
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delta407
Bodhisattva
Joined: 23 Apr 2002
Posts: 2876
Location: Chicago, IL
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| Posted: Wed Aug 14, 2002 5:56 am Post subject: |
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| sp00ky wrote: | | debian *stable* fit my and their needs. that's it. |
Good! It seems more people in the *nix world tend to choose the right tool for the job rather than blindly picking one system over another.
At any rate, I like Gentoo because ebuilds are a whole lot less involved than making .debs, as any package maintainer can attest to. And, with that in mind, packages come around faster, etc. And you can't beat the USE variables bit -- that's really what makes Portage not-just-another-package-management-system. USE variables gives the compile-time flexibility that only from-source distros can match.
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asimon
l33t
Joined: 27 Jun 2002
Posts: 979
Location: Germany, Old Europe
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| Posted: Wed Aug 14, 2002 9:36 am Post subject: |
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| Evangelion wrote: | | (I'm sick and tired of Debian sitting on their hands when it comes to certain apps. How about that Xfree 4.2 and KDE3? It's been close to 6 months already !). |
Let me reformulate your sentence: "I'am sick and tired of Gentoo sitting on their hands when it comes to certain apps. How about OpenOffice.org 1.0.1 and working gstreamer-plugins? !"
My view is different. I think this is very unfair from you. Do you think Debian is the only distribution short of developer time? What do you think? Gentoo is noway better situated. The number of ebuilds which get outdated and need an update grows every day. For example there is no longer an maintainer for OpenOffice.org (no 1.0.1 ebuild since many weeks), rhythmbox, mokey-media, and many others. The number of bugs certain packages have makes one dizzy. There are just not enough developers to do all this work. This is with Gentoo as it is with Debian (and every other non-commercial distro). Railing about 'lazy developers sitting on their hands' is sassy. They are not payed by Debian Inc. or Gentoo Technologies or whoever and do all this work in their spare time. They work the whole day, come home, eat supper (maybe have a quarrel with their wife) and then are faced with 100 new bug reports and 20 new upstream versions and people screaming 'fix that NOW lazy one' ...
Cheers,
Andreas |
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arkane
l33t
Joined: 30 Apr 2002
Posts: 918
Location: Phoenix, AZ
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| Posted: Wed Aug 14, 2002 4:38 pm Post subject: |
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hope i clear the things about debian. i'm really enjoy it.
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Nah, I understood before... just never agreed with being so conservative as to not even offer the NVidia driver debianized. It was sorely needed. Also, Samba just hopped up to 2.2.3, where the significant advance in Samba was between 2.0 and 2.2 series and happened quite a while ago.
It fits my needs on the server, but I need to patch it sometimes to get with the times |
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