New Linux User's take on the "Linux Ready for Desktop?&

Choser · n00b Joined: 08 Apr 2004 Posts: 21

Read my

http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic.php?t=161716

To see my history/introduction.

The forward question, "Is Linux ready to conquer the world?" Or rather, "Is the world ready for Linux?" You know, dominate the world, be in everything from our watches to our servers. Fortune 500 #1 - #500, Gov't agency A-Z, nation A-Z. People used to ask this question, and yup - it's there, its ready. It is more than capable, and it will continue to grow as companies upgrade and replace old solutions. It's been in the backroom forever, and it's lock on it will only grow, because it's the obvious choice. Embedded devices, same thing... Small to big, Linux is it. We all know the reasons, that so easily roll off the Linux Zealot's tongue. Free & Open, secure, stable, reliable, efficient. We all know this, and Linux has PROVEN itself here. But... why.. why not that elusive middle ground?

Is Linux ready for the Desktop? Well, yes. Its on my desktop now, it has been before, and for some people, has been since 91-93 whenever that time was. It's on almost all of your desktops too. So yay question answered problemed solved, kinda.

IT'S the wrong question. A better one, of course, is "Is Linux ready for the Mainstream?" Or maybe it can be termed, "Is Linux ready for Prime Time?" You know, for Joe Shmoe, or Granny Ma... and Billy Bob. Shut down Microsoft. Uhm, kinda. But, uhm, no. The most typical, and correct answer, 'Not Yet" or 'Not Now' applies. The smarter people have been asking this question, and answering it with that same answer.

There are a NUMBER of reasons why. I will go into them later on. Some of them have been touched upon, some rarely mentioned. I think we all have a good grasp of what is needed. I have no doubt in my mind that it is possible, and the schedule to make it so is pretty clear. A little more money, time, support. Get rid of this and that, add this and that, rearrange this, shuffle that arround, stamp it as good and present it this way. We're done, we have an operating system with all the benefits of Linux without it's hindrances, being, user frustration. But this too may be the wrong question. Off to a different question, and one that really should be asked. Because, before Linux shapes up to be poised to do so, we need to know if that's what we want.

"Do we want Linux to be in the hands of the Mainstream?" Bingo. Thats an odd one... and while I've heard allusions to this question, I've rarely seen it asked directly. I ask you, "HAVE YOU SEEN MAINSTREAM COMPUTERS?"

I don't know how many Linux users dual boot, or have Windows machines, or interact with Windows users. I gather that there are a lot, but not a majority in the Linux community. Some of you guys haven't really gotten your hands dirty with windows in ages. Well, as a recent migrant, let me tell you. ITS GETTING UGLY. It's always been down right dirty, but now, it's disgusting. The saavy users are upright enough to overcome obstacles - but still it's a waste of their time. For the majority of computer users, the world of Windows means slow slow, bloat bloat, spyware adware bloat bloat, tie-in software, duplicated software, closed off binaries, hidden options, restrictive liscencing, viruses, greed spyware spyware spyware bloat slow slow crash crash. Or something to that effect, sung to whatever childhood melody you like. It's not pretty.

"YEAH DAMN YOU MICROSOFT!!!" Whoa whoa hold off a second. That just ain't right. A few weeks ago my new car was vandalized. Needless to say, I was pretty pissed off, new windshields are expensive.... and so is minor body work. "DAMN YOU HONDA!!!!" Heh. You see what I'm trying to say? That would be rediculous. My hatred in those 30 minutes of bumbling and expletives were clearly directed at one person or group, the vandals. So long as my car makes a valid attempt to do what it can, I'm happy with it. It didn't break itself, it had an alarm on par with other manufacturers alarms, warding the vagrants off, and the safety glass didn't cut my hands during cleanup. The replacement part was readily available... all's good.

So what am I getting at? Can we blame microsoft for the mainstream's problems, or do we blame the mere fact that this is mainstream computing itself? Can Linux, poised in the mainstream, escape all these downsides? One of the greatest security features of Microsoft operating systems is the lovely, "security via obscurity". You dont know how it works, how can you find it's achiles heal? Let alone know if it has heals?" MOST windows exploits are done to flaws and loopholes uncovered by security firms or MS themselves, and on unpatched machines. Linux, as OPEN as it is, or as OPEN as you THINK it is, also hides by the lovely "security via obscurity" concept. Yes, it's true.

All of the JUNK that Windows has to deal with is simply because they have 94% of the desktop market. You want to make money with your click throughs on your adware, or selling records with spyware? Or money on your commercial software? You take aim and fire at that juicy 94%. Not to mention that the other 6% TENDS to either be a little more particular/anal about thier computers (the 3% of Mac users), or way more technologically saavy (the 3% of which are Linux users). It also doesn't help that I truly believe that a good chunk of that latter 3% are the ones who are taking aim and firing.

Folks, Linux DOES have security flaws, you know that. An unpatched Linux box is just as unsecure as an unpatched Windows machine. Forget about the speed of availability of the patches for now, or whatever other intricacy of system security. Vulterabilities are there in both setups, no matter how lax or upfront the company is on fixing them. Linux also DOES run binaries, ones that can be written to do harm. &.. they are exploited. There have been Linux viruses, and there have been some recent exploits of Linux servers. It's just, not a big target.

SO, before Linux can be in the mainstream, this has to be considered. It is BIG CONSIDERATION #1. Reason #1 of 2 why Windows is where it is and why Linux is where it is. The simple fact of standing out in the crowd, being put on a pedistal, puts you in more people's crosshairs. So, do Linux users's want this? If everyone used Linux, this happy 3% of Linux users would have to run Anti-X software, and the availability of some good commercial software MAY prevent some good free and open software from existing. As in, there are really NO good open source cd burning apps for windows because there are some great commercial ones - but along with the commercial choices comes it's own bloat and insecurity, bundled software, and less control over all your libraries and setup. So to finish this thought up, if you want Linux for the mainstream, there has to be a general consensus to not let up. Programmers have to continue writing open source drivers even if closed source ones are pretty good, the community has to continually press for the maintainaince of complete control over their systems, and the availability of high quality free and open software, and put their wallets towards donations in the right direction, and not do some corporation. If this isn't done, then while the saavy users will still be fine - the mainstream will still run into the same problems... that little bloat bloat slow slow buggy buggy spyware spyware song I proposed.

Okay, so, BIG CONSIDERATION #2. For unity, again I ask another question. "HAVE YOU SEEN MAINSTREAM COMPUTER USERS?". That's rhetorical, I know you all have. Yes, we can say it, when it comes to computers some people are as dumb as bricks. But no, that's not a bad thing, and doesn't warrant any criticism in any way. Doctors, scientists, teachers, professors, politicians - computer illiterate and happy that way, and without shame. You shouldn't know how a car works to drive one, same thing with watching a TV, or how your body works, or how your house was built. Noone can attain a level of expertise in every field, obviously. That's why we specialize. If my philosophy professors had to know what I know about the things I know things about, then she may not have been able to store as much yummy details about philosophy. (Pehaps rather than "store", it should be, "have time to focus on"). So, don't blame them, please, dont blame them. They're the last people who we should be pointing at. After all you're pointing at my Mom if you do and I don't take too kindly to that.

Embedded devices, servers, mission critical applications, programmers, engineers, computer enthusiasts. These markets have enjoyed Linux for a while, while the mainstream has not. Why? The only clear distinction is the level of expertice on the part of the user or designer. We all know that. What Linux needs to be on the desktop is quite clear. Remove the options, controls, and underlying technology from the eyes and hands of the user, and automate and simplify.

The Linux community needs to take a look at why windows is where it is, and try to learn from that, and not bash them for it. Don't get me wrong... I agree that ... ninety.. ninety uhm, four... ninety-four (94) percent (%) of why Microsoft has it's position is sheer luck / opportunity / causality / happenstance. They just got there through a series of events and have managed to take a stronghold. That being compatability with hard/soft-ware. Familiarity, merely existing where it does, has kept it there. But look at what they've done right. Windows provides a layer of abstraction from the underlying complexities of a computer, and that's exactly what Linux needs to prevail in this market sector.

The details on what can be done? The average user doesn't want to use an OS or even know what an OS is, or that he/she has one. You shoudn't see your boot loader or kernel messages... just a happy colorful working screen, with a looping progress bar maaybe. Go right into the login manager, all colorful and happy. Don't give a user too many choices, make some for him/her. Installation software should do the same, everything should be auto-detected, the size of the install should err on the side of being too big but more compatable, rather than smaller tighter and faster but less compatable. Every function should have one way to perform it, and everything should be organized into cleaner places. The linux file structure is blagh. For the mainstream user, it really needs to be rearranged. The command line is seen as an act of the devil to most users, and should never EVER be seen. Linux can go further than Microsoft even. SOO many people have incredible difficulty with Windows too. All of a users files should go into one place, GOOD software should be preinstalled, and adding and removing it should be simple and clear, everything should automatically update and maintain itself. The concept of security should be everpresent, making its way to all areas of using the system. Editing config files to get things going should become a thing of the past. BUT, while keeping the intricacies of how the computer works away from the hands of the user, the way that the OS is presented to the user should be customizable, clear, balanced, and personalizableableable. It will be very hard to find the exact line that most people enjoy. Of course, for those who must. The nasty underbelly should be able to be exposed, but it shouldn't be easy or ever necessary.

One big issue is that computers need maintainance, and people treat them like toasters or TV - they work out of the box, and when they get old slow and odd, replace them. But they are really more like a car, they need to be maintained, and currently no OS does that very very well. Although, Linux fares better than Windows... I'm pretty sure that after years of general use, a Linux box wont cludge up as much as a Windows one. Well... there is one OS that is irireparable. Knoppix is the ultimate in non-maintainance computer usage. Non fubarable. That should be one goal for the desktop. Of course, Knoppix tosses too much at the user at the same time. Minimalism is a good thing for the mainstream. Have a system that does what needs to be done and that's it.

So..... this has KIINDA been done. Redhat and Mandrake have really taken steps towards this, but they've gone about it in the wrong way. They toss MORE than what you need in your face to kind of go "Welcome to linux, now you can watch our happy ASCII-Art library videos and enjoy a pair of eyes follow your mouse around." WAA??? RPMs are a joke. Dependancies and libraries are too. What I always told windows users and myself, is that... Windows does this too - but if you don't have the libaries and dependancies that you need, you gotta get the latest windows. There are <10 major releases, or stepping stones to windows, and nearly infinite Linux system arrangements. If you want a simpler compatability scheme, you either need to adopt that major release stepping stone arrangement that Windows has (bad), or use a very well controlled dependancy manager. Some GUI interface to a simplifed Portage system would be ideal - one that removes potentially damaging options from your hands. Really... the ideal OS needs someone to hold your hand through using it, and instead of that being a dispersed crew of "computer guy that I know" around the world, it should be in the hands of a trusted group/company that manages your distribution. That will cost users $ - but the expense of an OS is usually the last thing that people care about, at least on the desktop. A FREE OS isn't everyone's dreams. A $50 OS that does exactly what you need is what everyone wants, really. I know Gentoo's poor mirrors couldn't handle half a billion Gentoo Desktop users a decade or whatever from now... so this is an eventuality.

Compatability is the last front, but herein doth not lay the rub, or whatever. Hardware/software compatability is tantamount to Linux' Desktop success, but it's more of an eventuality, rather than something that has to be desparately focused on. For the same detrimental reasons that viruses/(cr!)hackers/spyware aims at Windows, I mean, you know the drill, its a market. It's either spiraling upwards or downwards, and linux compatability is spiraling upwards, and as it should, is exponential. The seed is planted, time will create compatability on par with Windows. What the Linux community needs to ensure however, as mentioned before, is that this compatability does not compromise Linux' benefits.

Also, to clarify, while I truly believe Microsoft is taking steps for security, as they aren't completely vulterable, I do think that Linux does it better. They've also taken great strides in terms of reliability, but still, Linux does it better. Much better. At the lowest levels, and all throughout. Poised right, and delivered through properly, FREE HIGH QUALITY SIMPLE EASY AUTOMATED OPEN SOURCE software can take over this last market.

For unity I ask another question. Agree?

Given M. Sur · Posted: Fri Apr 16, 2004 3:17 am Post subject:

khiloa · Guru Joined: 27 Jan 2004 Posts: 333 Location: Florence, SC

hmm.. i think you made a few good points
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erikbjohn · n00b Joined: 01 Mar 2004 Posts: 18 Location: Boulder, CO

the_y_man · Tux's lil' helper Joined: 25 Jan 2004 Posts: 80

your essay is too long

Choser · n00b Joined: 08 Apr 2004 Posts: 21

I should clarify that the bulk of my post was geared towards Linux in general, and other distributions. I don't anticipate gentoo migrating away from it's more hands-on approach. I personally like it this way... gentoo is definately the distribution for me. But we still lack that distribution for everyone else. I'm not too famiar with Redhat of today, in 2004. Or Fedora at all. So the specifics, maybe configuration and install has gotten pretty good, but things are still lacking. But yeah you're right. The developers are probably 100 levels beyond and above me in terms of what is lacking and what needs to be worked on.

& I think the car analogies are perfect, I just have to embellish. I was talking about a specific event with a brick - not spit. Things have to be reasonable. If MS just left things wide open, with NO concern internally for security, that would be disgusting. But... security of a windows machine isn't exactly like picking someone elses flowers out of their yard, it takes some level of effort. On a current and patched setup, it's a pretty big challenge (and most vulnerabilities can point their fingers at the basic way that the internet is set up, it's inherently insecure). So you're right in the sense that I dont want a mild breeze to flip my car or an acorn to dent my hood... but I dont expect impossible protection from that brick or from a fallen limb. Trust me... I've owned some pretty junky cars and made some pretty irate complaints to the manufacturers. I think... while it is hard to define what is reasonable security - reasonable security is exactly what a person needs and exactly what a service offers. I think Microsoft does offer reasonable security on their modern operating systems, while Linux offers a "more than reasonable" level of security, if that is a good way to describe it.

As to car maintainance, it's a given, and people realize this, but they don't realize that computers need maintainance. Either train them to (not going to happen), or rethink and redesign computers for the masses, to where they don't need maintainance. Some control needs to be taken away, and functions need to be automated. With the ideal being a setup like Knoppix, one that cannot be damaged... of course, unlike Knoppix, a setup that uses your inherently fallable disk drive, and much faster.

In the windows world, "reformatting" is ... commonplace. It's what they all do. Use a computer for a few months, maybe a year... it gets chaulked up, reformat. I mean, restarting from scratch is a natural thing - when you can't salvage and old building sometimes its easier to demo it and start over... and even the basic human reproductive system works this way... we die but create new people to replace us before that happens. But ugh... reformatting every 6 months or even every year is just backwards. It should run run run and run forever, unless you mess it up, wherein you should be able to fix it. That idealic setup of a perfect computer setup that never has problems isn't possible, but it's just that - an ideal. You take a few steps more towards it and you're better off.

As to my mentioning of the $50 operating systems. Again I'm not talking about us, but rather the additional cost to ownership that is added on top of the purchase of a new machine from Dell, HP, whoever, that may come preloaded with a future Linux distribution. I'm sure as hell never going to spend $ for an OS again, nor will I for any business I have in the future. But the mainstream doesn't mind a little extra cost for a little guidance. Whether that guidance comes from their system OEM or the OS Distribution. I always feel a >little< guilty when I emerge something... I'm taking up bandwidth. I mean, right now Gentoo is comparatively small with regards to the world, but in the context of my post, I was talking about if 90%+ of computers were using Linux, and if they were all using some sort of dependancy management system, like Portage, that would always pose a burdon on those mirrors. I mean, Microsoft's web servers are always doing a lot of work but they don't have millions of people downloading ISOs and enourmous source code bundles. Free software is free but bandwidth sure aint. So that Linux distribution of the future that happens to cost money would mainly be paying for the service and support behind it, not the content itself.

Choser · n00b Joined: 08 Apr 2004 Posts: 21

provicemo · Posted: Fri Apr 16, 2004 5:53 am Post subject:

Given M. Sur · Posted: Fri Apr 16, 2004 6:22 am Post subject:

Mystilleef · Guru Joined: 27 Apr 2003 Posts: 561 Location: Earth

I don't think Linux is ready for mainstream usage, yet. At least not until hardware devices, drivers, and software are automatically detected and configured on a per functionality basis.

There is still a lot of hands with regards to using Linux, as opposed to the just works factor as exhibited by other operating systems like Mac OS X. I mean, I shouldn't have to edit Xfree configuration files to get my GUI up and running on Gentoo. An intelligent system will automatically detect all hardware devices present on my system and proceed to configure it optimally.

Or my printer for example, I shouldn't even know what CUPS is or does, talk little of configure it. I should just plug in my printer, allow Linux to magically and seamlessly configure it, and it should work, without any user input. Same goes for any other device or software.

To be blunt, Linux is pretty crude. In my opinion, it's not enough for Linux to be as good as Windows or Mac. It is necessary for Linux to be better, not just for mainstream usage, but for the sake of free software credibility and prosperity.

While Linux has come a long way and has improved beyond leaps and bounds on all spheres, I think Linux would arrive when proprietary vendors begin to copy exemplary features present in Linux.

In my opinion, we have a long way to go, fortunately, we have all the time to reach our destination, and we are restricted by nothing but human knowledge. I will continue to fail to accept that Linux has arrived until it is absolutely better than any operating system in the market. It will take time.

Having said all that, I use Windows XP, Mac OS X and Gentoo on a regular basis. You will be pleased to know that Gentoo remains my primary and favorite operating system.

Finally, I also need to point out that only commercial parties are interested in Linux going mainstream. Many Linux users are just genuinely interested in Linux growing and improving regardless of whether it is widely accepted on not. Yet still, purist like myself, what Linux and free software to be the model for developing all software in the future. I wish for the day, free software produces nothing but best of breed software.
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bigjohn · Guru Joined: 30 Nov 2003 Posts: 317 Location: 5100N, 0019W

Given M. Sur · Posted: Sat Apr 17, 2004 8:04 pm Post subject:

Riftwing · Apprentice Joined: 06 Oct 2002 Posts: 293

There are several other threads already discussing this...
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someguy · Posted: Sun Sep 05, 2004 6:23 am Post subject:

papal_authority · Veteran Joined: 31 Mar 2004 Posts: 1823 Location: Canada

odegard · Posted: Sun Sep 05, 2004 12:57 pm Post subject:

so now it's ok for the OS to make automatic updates? I remember when MS introduced this in windows... interesting to see how things change.

oh and btw, gentoo *is* a n00b distro. It was the first distro I ever installed, I didn't know anything about linux other than "different from windows" so there, QED. :-P

loki99 · Posted: Sun Sep 05, 2004 3:42 pm Post subject:

miqorz · Posted: Sun Sep 05, 2004 10:25 pm Post subject:

I'll make this short and sweet.

Shut up.