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Should vi make it into the Gentoo 1.4 LiveCD?
Yes, alongside nano, to give veteran users the option.
68%
 68%  [ 93 ]
Replace nano with vi, nano sucks!
14%
 14%  [ 20 ]
Vi? What about pico!?
2%
 2%  [ 3 ]
I hate vi. If anything, emacs should go on the LiveCD.
6%
 6%  [ 9 ]
Why not e3, it's small and does all of the above!
1%
 1%  [ 2 ]
[Another editor] is better than all of the above.
5%
 5%  [ 8 ]
Total Votes : 135

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charlieg
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2003 2:09 pm    Post subject: Should vi make it into the Gentoo 1.4 LiveCD? Reply with quote

There's been a rather angry discussion about this on the gentoo-user mail list... so what better way to guage the general opinion of the community than a poll.
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charlieg
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2003 2:31 pm    Post subject: My personal (and arguably uneducated) opinion on the matter. Reply with quote

I think that vi is small enough and different enough in basic behaviour (ie it's modal) to nano to warrant being included as an option on the LiveCD. For those that are vi addicts it will be a welcome addition and for those that don't care for vi will not notice it's there.

But emacs, I'm sorry to say, is not different enough (ie not modal) to discomfort emacs users by making them using nano for the basic tasks involved in installing up Gentoo. Add that to it's size, it's just too big at something close to 20megs.

I don't know about e3 really, but it was mentioned in the discussion a few times and is small at about ~15k (unconfirmed).
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2003 3:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I personally would welcome the option to use vi during install, but it's not really a big deal to me. However, my opinion might be different if I had to install Gentoo much more often.

I think the poll result, so far, is rather telling... :)
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2003 3:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OPENOFFICE i know it's big, needs x and java[1], but i can't edit files without it.
[1]yes i need a jre for all the macros in my smb.conf


i don't see why the vi people care so much. it's a fucking install. However, since they care so much and the livecds are already huge it wouldn'r be that big a deal.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2003 3:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

On 16th September 2002, drobbins wrote:
The Gentoo Linux development team is extremely pleased to announce the release of Gentoo Linux 1.4_rc1!
(...)
And yes, we now have "vi" on our install CD :)
(...)

(http://www.gentoo.org/news/20020916-gentoo14.xml)

Was it removed, then?
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2003 4:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd hate nano in the gentoo install less if the default was 'nano -w' perhaps an alias could be made on the live CD.

I'd be overjoyed to get vi in the install.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2003 4:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gsfgf wrote:
[size=24]
i don't see why the vi people care so much. it's a fucking install. However, since they care so much and the livecds are already huge it wouldn'r be that big a deal.



Mostly because vi is pretty much a standard in Unix, most Unix environments you go to have vi. So as an admin you learn vi and expect vi to be around as the editor of last resort.

Also the cd just isn't for installing, it's also a nice rescue disk. I used the Gentoo install cd to rescue my Debian box when a kernel upgrade forked my ext3 module(and prevented me from booting).
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charlieg
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2003 4:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

fghellar wrote:
On 16th September 2002, drobbins wrote:
The Gentoo Linux development team is extremely pleased to announce the release of Gentoo Linux 1.4_rc1!
(...)
And yes, we now have "vi" on our install CD :)
(...)

(http://www.gentoo.org/news/20020916-gentoo14.xml)

Was it removed, then?


Hmm... well... I created the thread after being directed to the vi/nano discussion by the Gentoo Weekly Newsletter. Either there's a lot of uninformed people (tsk tsk bad journalism) or there's a mix up. The entire discussion on gentoo-user is based around vi not being on the livecd.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2003 5:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

fghellar wrote:
On 16th September 2002, drobbins wrote:
The Gentoo Linux development team is extremely pleased to announce the release of Gentoo Linux 1.4_rc1!
(...)
And yes, we now have "vi" on our install CD :)
(...)

(http://www.gentoo.org/news/20020916-gentoo14.xml)

Was it removed, then?


IIRC, vi is on the install cd (at least is in 1.4rc1), but stops working right after you chroot. Maybe we need vi to the base system (the stage tarball)?
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2003 6:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Notepad should be the default editor. For simple tasks, it is easier to use than most other editors.

Seriously folks... how long do you deal with an editor during the install? 3 minutes? Get a grip. (I prefer vi by the way).
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2003 8:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

vi all the way...

I have a better question..

It's not why it should, it's why it shouldn't.. Can't see any good reason why it shouldn't..
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2003 8:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

vi was coded by God himself, it sucks and is about a user friendly as an angry kipper tied to a harddrive. Although its got a lot of nice features.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2003 8:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

port001 wrote:
vi was coded by God himself, it sucks and is about a user friendly as an angry kipper tied to a harddrive.


Then who made Emacs? :lol:
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2003 8:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gsfgf wrote:
OPENOFFICE i know it's big, needs x and java[1], but i can't edit files without it.
[1]yes i need a jre for all the macros in my smb.conf


i don't see why the vi people care so much. it's a fucking install. However, since they care so much and the livecds are already huge it wouldn'r be that big a deal.


I cannot live without MidnightCommander. Or something like Norton Commander or FAR. But definitely not deco!
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2003 8:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mmealman wrote:
port001 wrote:
vi was coded by God himself, it sucks and is about a user friendly as an angry kipper tied to a harddrive.


Then who made Emacs? :lol:

RMS is an egomaniac, which hardly qualifies as God, but he's the man to blame for Emacs.

I use vi and gvim quite extensively and I have run into the :wq error while installing Gentoo. It's rather annoying, but like most things with linux, I can only blame myself. It would be nice to see some form of vi to remain on the install CD.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2003 9:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It would definitely be a good idea to include vim on the install CD. You can even include vimacs: http://www.vimacs.cx (plugin to simulate emacs under vim) to appease the emacs hordes...
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2003 9:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I voted to add vi to the LiveCD.
Why?

Well, since I have been using vi for about 20 years, the commands kind of flow without thinking. I do things faster in vi, besides it is a standard editor that exists on every UNIX/LINUX distro available.

Erik
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2003 9:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

darktux wrote:
I have a better question..

It's not why it should, it's why it shouldn't.. Can't see any good reason why it shouldn't..
Because an Installation CD doesn't need to be an archive of All The World's Editors just to appease 3 people that might want to use it. One editor that is easy to use is fine. If you can use vi, you should be able to figure out nano. The opposite is not true.

I personally don't see a "good reason" to include multiple editors.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2003 9:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kanuslupus wrote:
darktux wrote:
I have a better question..

It's not why it should, it's why it shouldn't.. Can't see any good reason why it shouldn't..
Because an Installation CD doesn't need to be an archive of All The World's Editors just to appease 3 people that might want to use it. One editor that is easy to use is fine. If you can use vi, you should be able to figure out nano. The opposite is not true.

I personally don't see a "good reason" to include multiple editors.


It's not VI, that's going to 'fill' the cd, if it does make lots of users happy (!3), then I repeat my question... WHY NOT? I'd bet that are more vi users then there are nano, although it is more 'easy' to use.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2003 10:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

darktux wrote:
It's not VI, that's going to 'fill' the cd,
Correct... vi will not fill a CD. If vi is included on the CD, do we stop there? Once vi is added, why not add <insert some other editor here>?

Quote:
if it does make lots of users happy (!3), then I repeat my question... WHY NOT?
Because nano is sufficient for the 3 minutes the vi'ers need to use it.

Quote:
I'd bet that are more vi users then there are nano, although it is more 'easy' to use.
As nano is easier to use, why not just leave that be the only editor? Is there a feature nano is lacking that hinders the install process? I wouldn't care if nano was replaced with another easy editor. There is no reason to include several editors. Also, the point seems moot. The decision to add vi was already made, no? Perhaps it isn't working, but it was included, correct?



I'm amazed at the interest level people have in including unecessary things on an install CD.

Happy polling.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2003 10:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

couldnt someone just edit the install doc to use echo and sed where an editor is needed?

I'd like to see that :D
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2003 10:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This may be a bit ironic:

The first thing I installed after setting up a FreeBSD box was nano so I wouldn't have to use vi or ee. I like nano: it's simple enough to do quick text editing and nothing else...and Gentoo was my first "involved" *nix so I was pretty much exposed to nano first.

Nothing against vi; I just haven't learned it yet. When I first installed FreeBSD, the mode thing confused me to no end though I did figure out how to save, switch modes, and quit...but that was about all I could do.

If anything, having both vi and nano on the LiveCD would be the "best" option, IMO. People don't use the CD exclusively for installs, so the vi-endorsers do have a point in including it with the LiveCD. However, nano is also an important include (not to be removed from the LiveCD) just because it's so simple...and the basic commands are listed at the bottom. I do disagree with aliasing "nano -w" with nano because of the confusion it might cause elsewhere. I'd rather "know" that I'm using "nano -w" because of the possibility of working on another computer where
"nano -w" isn't aliased.

For the people disturbed about vi disappearing after chroot...well, I'm still a bit new to *nix, but mount and a few other commands also disappear after chroot...I'm guessing you want vi added to the stage*.tbz2.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2003 10:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hhaamu wrote:
IIRC, vi is on the install cd (at least is in 1.4rc1), but stops working right after you chroot. Maybe we need vi to the base system (the stage tarball)?
Can't you just leave a virtual terminal outside the chroot, and do your vi'ing there?
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2003 10:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kanuslupus wrote:
darktux wrote:
It's not VI, that's going to 'fill' the cd,
Correct... vi will not fill a CD. If vi is included on the CD, do we stop there? Once vi is added, why not add <insert some other editor here>?


Even if you'd put all the editors, you wouldn't fill the cd.. (the cd had about 200 Mb, last time I checked) It's not such a big thing to ask for vim/nano/pico/emacs to be on the cd... It would put a smile on everyone's face :lol:

kanuslupus wrote:
Quote:
if it does make lots of users happy (!3), then I repeat my question... WHY NOT?
Because nano is sufficient for the 3 minutes the vi'ers need to use it.


With that I can cope with.. It's not such a big 'effort' to 'have' to use nano for "3 minutes".

Quote:
I'd bet that are more vi users then there are nano, although it is more 'easy' to use.
kanuslupus wrote:
As nano is easier to use, why not just leave that be the only editor? Is there a feature nano is lacking that hinders the install process? I wouldn't care if nano was replaced with another easy editor. There is no reason to include several editors. Also, the point seems moot. The decision to add vi was already made, no? Perhaps it isn't working, but it was included, correct?


Sure there is a reason... "Freedom of choice", I honestly believe that nano, emacs and vi should be added, although I like vi the most.
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Last edited by darktux on Mon Jan 06, 2003 11:32 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2003 10:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ohhhhhhhh btw! I've just remembered!!! Isn't the Live CD also a Rescue Disk? WHAT ABOUT THAT? I think you should be more then confortable when using it as a Rescue Disk, wouldn't you agree?
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