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ulenrich
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 Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2014 11:39 pm Post subject: |
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| steveL wrote: | | Good luck with your switch to Apple, though. |
| ulenrich wrote: | | First of all I am not interested in discussion of my personal motivation with you. |
| khayyam wrote: | | ulenrich ... which of course is another way of saying that whatever the "motivation", however unsupported by fact, etc, etc ... its not open for discussion. Besides the fact that I, and probably others, don't care what your "personal motivation" is, if you have an argument (which, as I read the above, you don't) its this we would challenge, if, in fact we could see such an argument ... but then we, your protagonists, are probably in thrall of some "evil magician putting a spell on us". That's how to get one under the wire, you throw some diversion in there to black your protagonists, mix in some vague terminology, then say "thar is me argument ... me no discussie" ... and we are supposed to take this as, 1), seriously worth responding to, and 2), more than simply trolling. |
| Anon-E-moose wrote: | Given his past trolling on these types of threads, he's here as the token sysd fanboi seeking to get another thread locked.
If he wants to be butthurt that not everyone is in the mood for his brand of kookaid, that's his problem.
Everyone just ignore him. |
Really, do I have to openly state why I bought a second-hand iPhone5c?
- personal Fanboi to TC, because I am gay?
- my girl friend is in another country for a year and we want to do facetime?
- I need to have an iPhone on the job?
I want to be "seriously worth responding" without giving such information in this public.
steveL didn't justify why he is using an Android powered by the Google spy organisation either. |
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khayyam
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| Posted: Tue Dec 16, 2014 1:08 am Post subject: |
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| ulenrich wrote: | | Really, do I have to openly state why I bought a second-hand iPhone5c? |
ulenrich ... you're switching contexts, unless you are saying there is some relation between this purchase (and your not discussing it) and systemd? I would argue there isn't, and that if you say "I am not interested in discussion of my personal motivation with you" and then go on to ignore the substantive issues, and prognosticate about a "paradigmatical (sic) change", then *anyone* might wonder what your argument is exactly. Additionally, the combination of that statement, failing to answer any substantive point, and then going on to prognosticate about a paradigm shift, after having tried to black your protagonists by comparing them to primitives in thrall of some "evil magician", and "herd cows" who are mad about being led, is the tail-tail sign of trolling.
| ulenrich wrote: | | - personal Fanboi to TC, because I am gay? |
What? How does this come into it (other than for you to say "its because I'm gay" or what-have-you).
| ulenrich wrote: | | - my girl friend is in another country for a year and we want to do facetime? |
... and systemd (the subject of this thread) will help how?
| ulenrich wrote: | | - I need to have an iPhone on the job? |
... what has your iPhone to do with it?
| ulenrich wrote: | | I want to be "seriously worth responding" without giving such information in this public. |
So you don't have anything that can back up your claims, or defend your trolling, but you don't want to discuss it because you don't want your purchase of an iPhone to be known in public?
| ulenrich wrote: | | steveL didn't justify why he is using an Android powered by the Google spy organisation either. |
... strawman.
BTW, please note in the above how the "not discussing it" quote is placed bellow steve's to give the impression its this you're responding to, which was not the case in the original post.
best ... khay |
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ulenrich
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| Posted: Tue Dec 16, 2014 1:34 am Post subject: |
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I gave You some examples illustrating why I would not discuss my move to Apple regarding my new smartphone. And I won't discuss it.
Apple is leading the industry. Forget Microsoft. The desktop is dead. Not more to say about that ...
| Quote: | | please note in the above how the "not discussing it" quote is placed bellow steve's to give the impression its this you're responding to |
It was an answer to steveL wishing me luck with Apple and it was not explicit enough to easily understand. I knew you likely will misinterpet if I don't use quotes. Thus I didn't quote steveL  I know your standard behaviors. This was trolling against you I managed by placing your keyword in front of the usual first running. |
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khayyam
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| Posted: Tue Dec 16, 2014 2:18 am Post subject: |
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| ulenrich wrote: | | I gave You some examples illustrating why I would not discuss my move to Apple regarding my new smartphone. And I won't discuss it. Apple is leading the industry. Forget Microsoft. The desktop is dead. Not more to say about that ... |
ulenrich ... ok, so all you need do now is explain how this is relevent to the discussion at hand, or why we should care who's "leading the industry", what phone you have, or how "evil magician[s]", and "herd cows", feature in all this.
best ... khay |
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ulenrich
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| Posted: Tue Dec 16, 2014 2:24 am Post subject: |
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What discussion. It is chatter. meaningless all of it. Do you want to discuss something?
You are likely too exhausted now ... |
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khayyam
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| Posted: Tue Dec 16, 2014 2:32 am Post subject: |
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| ulenrich wrote: | | khayyam wrote: | | please note in the above how the "not discussing it" quote is placed bellow steve's to give the impression its this you're responding to [which was not the case in the original post.] |
It was an answer to steveL wishing me luck with Apple and it was not explicit enough to easily understand. I knew you likely will misinterpet if I don't use quotes. Thus I didn't quote steveL :) I know your standard behaviors. This was trolling against you I managed by placing your keyword in front of the usual first running. |
ulenrich ... having edited your original post to add the above I'm forced to respond separately. Firstly, I've added back the point, this was "not the case in the original post", so it wasn't an "an answer to steveL" unless you expect that readers are psychic about your intentions. I didn't "misinterpet" (sic) it, it was added by you to provide the impression that the discussion was clear, when it wasn't.
Now we see ... you "know [my] standard behaviors" (sic) and so your "trolling against [me]" ... yeah, yeah, well ... you know trolling is against forum guidelines? |
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ulenrich
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| Posted: Tue Dec 16, 2014 2:39 am Post subject: |
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steveL
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| Posted: Tue Dec 16, 2014 1:16 pm Post subject: |
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| ulenrich wrote: | | First of all I am not interested in discussion of my personal motivation with you. But |
| khayyam wrote: | | ulenrich ... which of course is another way of saying that whatever the "motivation", however unsupported by fact, etc, etc ... its not open for discussion. Besides the fact that I, and probably others, don't care what your "personal motivation" is, if you have an argument (which, as I read the above, you don't) its this we would challenge, if, in fact we could see such an argument ... but then we, your protagonists, are probably in thrall of some "evil magician putting a spell on us". That's how to get one under the wire, you throw some diversion in there to black your protagonists, mix in some vague terminology, then say "thar is me argument ... me no discussie" ... and we are supposed to take this as, 1), seriously worth responding to, and 2), more than simply trolling. |
LMAO. "But, but, you can't get round me with logic.."
| Anon-E-moose wrote: | Given his past trolling on these types of threads, he's here as the token sysd fanboi seeking to get another thread locked.
If he wants to be butthurt that not everyone is in the mood for his brand of kookaid, that's his problem.
Everyone just ignore him. |
Agreed. Especially since he's just admitted he was here trolling; | ulenrich wrote: | | This was trolling against you I managed by placing your keyword in front of the usual first running. |
| khayyam wrote: | | Now we see ... you "know [my] standard behaviors" (sic) and so your "trolling against [me]" ... yeah, yeah, well ... you know trolling is against forum guidelines? |
No "maybe" about it.
Occasionally people get into long-running arguments, that go on across threads. That's ok, if it's simply a disagreement or a difference of opinion being thrashed-out. Deliberate trolling is another matter, and you are self-evidently doing exactly like that, by your own words.
Why is Poeterring's crappy work so important to you? Are you connected to the upstream lunacy somehow? |
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krinn
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| Posted: Tue Dec 16, 2014 2:24 pm Post subject: |
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I'm not sure i get you ulenrich???
- Is openrc trying to be a dependency so you must use it for no reason?
- Is systemd not working in gentoo?
- What bad experience you have how systemd is implement in gentoo?
I could see plenty reasons of people in this thread ranting against systemd :
- Could be just to keep using what they like
- Could be just to not using systemd for any reason they wish, including not liking the authors...
... plenty different reasons in fact.
But i really fail to see what you are fighting for?
If you embrace the "systemd must be default in Gentoo" (as you may notice it's the subject of this thread), can we get why it should be like that for you? What you doesn't like in systemd in Gentoo (it seems clear you love systemd, it is really unclear what disturb you how systemd is handle in Gentoo)? What and why should we change that?
Notice i would take it as valid argument a "systemd must be default in Gentoo as i'm in love with LP", as it is as valid as "systemd must not be default because i hate LP" ; i'm not saying such kind of argument are the best, but at least, it's something i could understand ; but as you keep refuting the fanboy tag, it seems that's not your argument there. Leaving everyone wondering what are you unhappy about. |
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ct85711
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| Posted: Tue Dec 16, 2014 7:21 pm Post subject: |
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| I have no problem using systemd if you can give some provable technical facts that is support systemd is better. That's what some of us dislike on systemd, is the few times systemd tried to say a provable fact, it's always turned out false. Also, I don't care one bit cloud based or mobile based systems; I am worried about MY desktop system where I do all of my work. |
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ulenrich
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| Posted: Tue Dec 16, 2014 9:20 pm Post subject: |
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| krinn wrote: | But i really fail to see what you are fighting for?
...
but as you keep refuting the fanboy tag, it seems that's not your argument there. Leaving everyone wondering what are you unhappy about. |
I am totally frightened about the future I expect to come. Regarding Gentoo I am satisfied. For me the best distro providing unbelivable stability when following most recent upstream developments. At the same time Gentoo gives me all the freedom I expect. Therefore I don't understand this long thread about a non issue.
@Krinn, in your introducing question you got the point about me: I fail to see how to fight for my values in any way. I should have opened my own thread about it. But I even fail to formulate my "Angst" in any comprehensive terms.
I stongly felt to have to shout: You are looking in backward directions!
May be it is trollish behavior saying: Gentoo users living in the deadlands now. Silencing the "magician", who does nothing but copying Apples launchD, won't let it rain again.
I really should begin a seperate thread instead of "derailing this thread" in order to show another perspective. But I am unable to do as of yet. steveL analyzed these my shortcomings already. |
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ct85711
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| Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2014 2:51 am Post subject: |
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It's pretty safe to say that we don't mind on constructive arguments, as long as your willing to back up your stance and not forcing your opinion on someone else. The entire time I've monitored this thread chain, it's had a common thing that most of us don't mind systemd in general. We just don't want it forced on our selves just because of some corporate/political agenda. The biggest battle systemd is having is because they ruined their self image earlier by lying to us and giving false claims about systemd. How are we suppose to accept someone's word when they've proven that they aren't telling us correctly.
I can see why most of the distro's switched to systemd, it's primarily because of gnome (also made by RH). No distro can afford to loose a large fraction of their user base if they stop supporting a specific DM. Because of this, I don't see distro's moving away from systemd till gnome stops depending on systemd or distros maintain a unsupported patch. |
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steveL
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| Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2014 12:42 pm Post subject: |
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| krinn wrote: | But i really fail to see what you are fighting for?
...
but as you keep refuting the fanboy tag, it seems that's not your argument there. Leaving everyone wondering what are you unhappy about. |
| ulenrich wrote: | | I am totally frightened about the future I expect to come. Regarding Gentoo I am satisfied. For me the best distro providing unbelivable stability when following most recent upstream developments. At the same time Gentoo gives me all the freedom I expect. Therefore I don't understand this long thread about a non issue. |
You can't have it both ways; either it's a frightening future, or this thread is a non-issue.
| Quote: | | I strongly felt to have to shout: You are looking in backward directions! |
I strongly feel to shout "You are talking nonsense!"
Computing has always been about looking forward, to my mind; programming in itself requires it, by definition, since you have to write the code before it can be used.
Doing your research, and learning from what's been done before, are not backwards-looking. I simply do not trust any "developer" who thinks s/he can dive in and reorganise the Unixverse without having done at least 5 years solid research, in a junior role viz-a-viz anyone they come across, especially in terms of how they behave.
During those 5 years, they should be writing useful applications, and learning several "languages" at once.
Or y'know, my response to that "developer" would be:
"Fsck off and die, not to put too fine a point on it: you don't know WTF you are doing, nor even WTF you are talking about. Step back, and stop breaking sh1t."
| Quote: | | May be it is trollish behavior saying: Gentoo users living in the deadlands now. Silencing the "magician", who does nothing but copying Apples launchD, won't let it rain again. |
It is trollish, and so is repeating your insult about anyone who doesn't agree with you.
On what basis do you assert a) that we're silencing anyone at all; b) that this is a "magician" and not a fraudster, c) that it's stopped raining, whatever that means, and (most of all) d) that "Gentoo users" are as dumbass as you make out.
Present an argument to back up your words, as you've just insulted a whole swathe of us, effectively by calling us "primitives" who are wondering whom to sacrifice "to make it rain" again.
Leaving aside the dubious sense of superiority for having been born later than someone else, as well as the clear ignorance of how people have lived over the millennia, justify the nasty insult (wrapped up in civility) you've just used against all of us.
| Quote: | | I really should begin a seperate thread instead of "derailing this thread" in order to show another perspective. But I am unable to do as of yet. steveL analyzed these my shortcomings already. |
You really should work out what your perspective is. ATM it's muddled, and badly-presented, and all I've been able to establish is that you think Poeterring is a "magician" when most of us think he's a confused amateur, with delusions of grandeur.
The future is only slightly worrying due to the insanity of Poeterring being given access to RedHat's marketing clout.
I didn't do the analysis, btw; khayyam did. He's a lot smarter than you realise, and you could learn an awful lot from him, if you saw that.
Further it was not an analysis of your shortcomings, but the shortcomings in your written statements. There is an awfully big difference, and you should reflect upon it, imo, since you clearly haven't understood it, yet.
I hope you get past your fear. |
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steveL
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| Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2014 12:47 pm Post subject: |
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| ct85711 wrote: | | I can see why most of the distro's switched to systemd, it's primarily because of gnome (also made by RH). No distro can afford to loose a large fraction of their user base if they stop supporting a specific DM. Because of this, I don't see distro's moving away from systemd till gnome stops depending on systemd or distros maintain a unsupported patch. |
The really sad part is that most of those users wanted GNOME using its boring old "desktop metaphor" and not the nu-fangled "tablet" idea which really doesn't work on a desktop. |
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Fitzcarraldo
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| Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2014 2:51 pm Post subject: |
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| steveL wrote: | | ct85711 wrote: | | I can see why most of the distro's switched to systemd, it's primarily because of gnome (also made by RH). No distro can afford to loose a large fraction of their user base if they stop supporting a specific DM. Because of this, I don't see distro's moving away from systemd till gnome stops depending on systemd or distros maintain a unsupported patch. |
The really sad part is that most of those users wanted GNOME using its boring old "desktop metaphor" and not the nu-fangled "tablet" idea which really doesn't work on a desktop. |
Entirely agree. It was a similar case when Microsoft introduced Windows 8, with its Metro interface for tablets plus a hobbled desktop UI. Windows desktop users (including, crucially, the corporate world) were very unenthusiastic, as the resulting OS is neither fish nor fowl. Hence the advent of third-party applications such as Classic Shell to turn Windows 8/8.1 back into something resembling Windows 7. Allegedly, Windows 10 is going to revert to a more-traditional desktop UI.
Returning to the subject of GNOME 3, I can see that it would be usable on a tablet, but I cannot abide using it on a desktop PC or laptop.
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arnvidr
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| Posted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 7:31 am Post subject: |
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Going on a slight tangent here, I just got a new desktop at work, with Windows 8.1. They've managed to revert the worse blunders by now, such that it works fine for a limited-use machine (that is, one where you can pin most of your regular programs to the taskbar, like at work or for a gaming rig). The right-click menu on the "start button" contains most functions that could have you regularly diving into the start screen mess.
As for Classic Shell, I don't miss the Windows 7 start menu, because that was a horrible mess too. I don't have it installed on my work machine, but I have it installed on an old Windows 7 laptop, go figure.
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i4dnf
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| Posted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 9:17 pm Post subject: |
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And to get this topic back on track:
https://www.alertlogic.com/blog/dont-let-grinch-steal-christmas/
I admit, I didn't know where to put this, here or on the kdbus thread, but looks like steveL's nightmares about polkit might unfortunately come true.
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Fitzcarraldo
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Anon-E-moose
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| Posted: Fri Dec 19, 2014 11:54 am Post subject: |
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It is expected behavior.
Of course this doesn't mean that I think that polkit does things the right way,
but the gaining of privileges by way of the wheel group, is standard policy.
Though I don't have wheel having any special privileges on my system, it's not activated in the sudoers file.
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avx
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Ant P.
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| Posted: Fri Dec 19, 2014 3:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Don't worry, systemd will eventually switch to webkit for a net reduction in complexity. |
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Fitzcarraldo
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i4dnf
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| Posted: Fri Dec 19, 2014 9:59 pm Post subject: |
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I know that it's by design that way. But how is that different from the old winxp defaulting any user account to administrator privileges? (and the horde of issues that alone brought with it)
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tld
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| Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2014 12:17 am Post subject: |
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Maybe I'm just slow today...everything I read about that supposed issue seems to go by me. I'm not sure if I've been misunderstanding the purpose of the wheel group.
I've always had my own user set up to belong to the wheel group, in order to be able to use su to become root. It of course requires that I know the root password to do so. Is there some inherent risk there I'm not aware of? Is it the case that, for example, that some/all local privilege escalation vulnerabilities only work if the user belongs to wheel?
I'm feeling surprisingly ignorant here  . |
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i4dnf
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| Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2014 12:41 am Post subject: |
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[The polkit based] package kit doesn't require you to know/enter the password to use the administrator privileges, its enough that your user is in the wheel group (or at least that's what I understand from both the original article and the RH rebuttal), supposedly as a convenience, so you don't have to enter the password for each administrative task you do.
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