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steveL
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 Posted: Sat Dec 06, 2014 6:21 am Post subject: |
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| depontius wrote: | | Where I work sometimes it seems that technical merit is unimportant compared to (immediate) cost, policy, and management-fad-of-the-year. I strongly suspect that the company management would LOVE systemd - it promises things that companies like, even if the users don't, and if it fails to meet its promises, that just means we have to adapt, be innovative, work smarter, pick the cliche of the moment. |
Yeah, executives are the bane of IT depts everywhere.. ;-)
| Quote: | So in my mind's eye I can see forces in the company gleefully anticipating systemd and shoving it down our throats. I've fought and lost too many battles like this in the past few years, so that means I'm also thinking of ways around it.
I fear my defeatist attitude comes naturally, as does my tendency to work around crap foisted on me. |
I understand where you're coming from, believe me. In general, I'm fine with workarounds in shell, eg to support busybox in openrc, since if you script portably, you simply have to account for differences (eg with zsh, mksh or indeed bb, but more usually with variant userland) which is why POSIX is so close to my heart.
I don't support the same stance in a codebase, and not within a script; as in: push for cleanliness all the time. I don't like the feeling that what I've written is so brittle that I cannot simply go in there and hack on it. If I get that feeling I push through and cleanup whatever I can't follow (because it's so convoluted, sometimes because my boss wrote it "elegantly";) first. At all times it should be easy to read, or it's just too "clever".
| Quote: | | Things are changing though, in the next year. |
Yeah next year is shaping up to be quite a fun one.
| Quote: | | On a more immediate front, it looks like more of the Linux community is waking, and I don't think they're too happy about what's been going on. I don't think I've seen any new systemd voices, but the "quit pushing this on us" side seems to be growing. |
Hehe; I think it's inevitable. As soon as anyone with any substantial programming experience (ie: has made enough fsck-ups to know they're not as smart as they once thought) looks at the overall approach, the first thing that's going to happen is alarm-bells will start ringing. Big jangly ones you simply cannot ignore, that will bring to mind various ill-fated adventures that left them with a sick feeling in their stomach and no option but to start over.
"Plan to throw one away, you will anyway" should be "plan to throw two away" to deal with the inevitable second-system effect. But this is FLOSS, right? So we just push it early and hope. (After all we got really stoked when the first, simplistic, version worked, and now it has bells and whistles which "work for me".)
That's not so bad if you come from the UNIX tradition: it's fatal if what you're really after is your name in lights, rather than being absorbed in your craft. |
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steveL
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| Posted: Sat Dec 06, 2014 6:32 am Post subject: |
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| tld wrote: | | I've frankly read a few too many arguments "against" systemd that manage to give it all sorts of undeserved credit. |
Partly that's the inevitable human tendency to want to explain, part of which is not disparaging the use-cases people raise.
It's hard though, when they've been stuck on sysv-rc, which we left behind nearly a decade ago thanks to UberLord, and worse none of them know how to shell-script cleanly, so the initscripts their developers have cobbled together (while holding their noses) over the years are so dire.
So yeah a simple declarative file looks much cleaner; but then, so do openrc runscripts. The latter also have the advantage (over systemd) of proper dependency resolution.
And ofc there are all the other effects from not losing modularity, and not increasing coupling to the N'th degree.
And not needing javascript since we're totally relaxed with running clean, efficient shell. It's not the bottleneck: if it were, it wouldn't have been running UNIX systems for the past 40 years.
It's amazing how much slicker a machine is without all the redundant crap like polkit et al. |
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mayak
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mrbassie
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| Posted: Tue Dec 09, 2014 3:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Hero worship from Chris Fischer. |
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Shamus397
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| Posted: Wed Dec 10, 2014 1:16 pm Post subject: |
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I don't think I could watch that LAS episode without puking.  Funny how Fisher links to all the usual propaganda like 'Systemd Myths' written by Poettering, without any of the sane rebuttals like this (and yes, I know why).
That said, I think this is a much better video featuring Lennart Poettering. |
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Anon-E-moose
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| Posted: Wed Dec 10, 2014 2:25 pm Post subject: |
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A couple of comments.
1. Chris Fischer has long been on his knees worshiping LP.
2. The fact that LP doesn't understand the difference between the user (external interaces) and the developer (internal interfaces)
is one of the many (valid) reasons why he's never been allowed to be a kernel dev nor should he be until he understands programming
is more than just having an idea and writing some snippets of code or just having an arrogant attitude.
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truekaiser
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| Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2014 4:15 am Post subject: |
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| New version of systemD released on the 9th. One of the new features? it checks the DPI on the attached mice on the system.. |
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roki942
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| Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2014 4:55 am Post subject: |
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| truekaiser wrote: | | New version of systemD released on the 9th. One of the new features? it checks the DPI on the attached mice on the system.. |
A Borg eyepatch on my mouse is just soooo damn sexy ... got to have it!  |
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Fitzcarraldo
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| Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2014 7:01 am Post subject: |
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| Shamus397 wrote: | | I don't think I could watch that LAS episode without puking. |
I don't think I could watch any episode of the LAS. It's just cringeworthy.
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mrbassie
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Anon-E-moose
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| Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2014 2:09 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks mrbassie, from the article, and spot on IMO
| Quote: | I think that boils down to just a few specific points:
1. It doesn't follow the Linux (Unix) philosophy of creating small tools to do just one job.
2. It was created primarily by/for a large company (Red Hat).
3. It is continuing to expand, absorbing other utilities and creating new dependencies.
4. It doesn't follow the Linux (Unix) philosophy of simple plain-text logs.
5. There are some over-sized egos (and tempers) in the Linux community.
6. Linux is slowly becoming Windows. |
Especially #6 re. sysd
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mrbassie
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| Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2014 2:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Fitzcarraldo wrote: | | Shamus397 wrote: | | I don't think I could watch that LAS episode without puking. |
I don't think I could watch any episode of the LAS. It's just cringeworthy. |
You'll have missed when they talked about uselessd. He said systemd's not useless and "we need systemd for the cloud".
God knows where he got that nonsense |
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WWWW
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| Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2014 2:28 pm Post subject: |
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ha ha ha!
From a different take there's hilarity in all this.
Because I am not an expert but when systemd terrorism first started spreading I was scared it could destroy linux as we know.
Since the beginning systemd struck as an odd solution, you know there's an elegance the way unix tools are organized and do things. But lacking technical background to express this it's hard to defend my point.
Now, however, with many posts addressing systemd's different parts, politics, hidden agenda, code snippets, etc, it's great fun how LP piece of shit idea gets ripped to pieces left and right.
I don't know what else to add because it's got to a point past argumentation. At this point the battle is strictly up against an AGENDA, nothing more than that.
And that's the only explanation left to it. Because all this years my installs used to work just fine until about a year ago systemd terrorism planted a logic bomb in udev that destroyed separated /usr partition.
One interesting place that I saw a concerted effort to stay the fuck away from systemd was in Mageia's forum. There is a dedicated post about openrc and Mageia.
Go Gentoo! Destroy systemd terror organization!! |
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ulenrich
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| Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2014 3:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Code: | # diff
< I think that boils down to just a few specific points:
> I think this boils hot:
< 1. It doesn't follow the Linux (Unix) philosophy of creating small tools to do just one job.
> 1. Nobody in the industry follows old Unix style to only use ascii text piping tools
< 2. It was created primarily by/for a large company (Red Hat).
> 2. systemD is for distributions which want to supercede the desktop paradigm
< 3. It is continuing to expand, absorbing other utilities and creating new dependencies.
> 3. It is continuing to expand and other projects depend on it more and more.
< 4. It doesn't follow the Linux (Unix) philosophy of simple plain-text logs.
> 4. It doesn't follow Linux habit to just provide simple plain-text logs without context
< 5. There are some over-sized egos (and tempers) in the Linux community.
> 5. It is a race to enter the mobile market, because the Desktop is dead.
< 6. Linux is slowly becoming Windows.
> 6. The herd is following Apple - as Microsoft does. |
Gentoo users living in the deadlands now
do not see the Desktop as paradigm is yesterday.
Its convulsions are taken as sign for life.
We don't want to be handcuffed by systemD
which introduced concepts we do not need (now).
We do have a strong use case to further
have openrc as init possible:
it allows our personal hackery as ever.
You might think
if we could stop the evil magician putting a spell on us
the rain is gonna come again?
| Anon-E-moose wrote: | | Quote: | | 6. Linux is slowly becoming Windows. |
Especially #6 re. sysd |
A cow in the herd being mad about the cow in front dictating the course ... |
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steveL
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| Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2014 5:13 pm Post subject: |
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| ulenrich wrote: | < 1. It doesn't follow the Linux (Unix) philosophy of creating small tools to do just one job.
> 1. Nobody in the industry follows old Unix style to only use ascii text piping tools |
Ugh: can't you see that you're changing the words, in order to make them sound worse?
Don't you realise that we can see you doing it?
In case you hadn't noticed, there's a thing called "UTF-8" nowadays.
Many in the industry quite like it, in fact.
| Quote: | < 2. It was created primarily by/for a large company (Red Hat).
> 2. systemD is for distributions which want to supercede the desktop paradigm |
LMAO. People who use the word "paradigm" when they mean "metaphor" are usually full of crap.
| Quote: | < 3. It is continuing to expand, absorbing other utilities and creating new dependencies.
> 3. It is continuing to expand and other projects depend on it more and more. |
You're saying the same thing; though you're missing the heavy dependencies it has itself. Further that the "projects which depend on it more and more" are often projects that used to work fine without it, until they were coopted, with reassurances that they'd continue to be standalone; in order to be used for the "gentle push" at a later date, when suddenly they "require fubard".
| Quote: | < 4. It doesn't follow the Linux (Unix) philosophy of simple plain-text logs.
> 4. It doesn't follow Linux habit to just provide simple plain-text logs without context |
What does that even mean? This again is a half-baked "solution" looking for someone to care.
Perhaps you've heard of this thing called the "filesystem"; it gives you plenty enough context to know what is what, assuming you're a competent admin. And if you're not, this is all of zero interest in any case.
| Quote: | < 5. There are some over-sized egos (and tempers) in the Linux community.
> 5. It is a race to enter the mobile market, because the Desktop is dead. |
Ah I see, so this is what you mean by the desktop "paradigm" no longer applying? Nice as mobile devices are, they don't supplant desktops, and in fact they use the desktop metaphor themselves, just with more screens.
Though I'm curious: where does multi-seat fit in, given that "the Desktop is dead" and everyone is racing to work on mobile devices? Surely your Great Leader can't be wrong about the need for it, can he? I mean, it must instead be the case that people are clamouring to plug two keyboards and monitors into their phone, so their partner can run a separate wayland DE-login..
| Quote: | < 6. Linux is slowly becoming Windows.
> 6. The herd is following Apple - as Microsoft does. |
Man, you're full of it. If anything the herd is following us, since we've been using multiple desktops for ages; exactly what all those separate screens on my android phone are (although they veer a bit towards KDE "activities" too.)
| Anon-E-moose wrote: | | Quote: | | 6. Linux is slowly becoming Windows. |
Especially #6 re. sysd |
| Quote: | | A cow in the herd being mad about the cow in front dictating the course ... |
A calf in the back thinking that the young bull he's met, who knows all the right words, is the one in charge.. when this is a herd, not a ship.
There is no Captain. You're misinformed, and the metaphors you're using make that clear.
Good luck with your switch to Apple, though. |
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tld
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| Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2014 6:18 pm Post subject: |
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| steveL wrote: | | ulenrich wrote: | < 4. It doesn't follow the Linux (Unix) philosophy of simple plain-text logs.
> 4. It doesn't follow Linux habit to just provide simple plain-text logs without context |
What does that even mean? This again is a half-baked "solution" looking for someone to care.
|
I was about to ask what in God's earth the missing "context" was...like when I see a log message, with a time stamp in the file /var/log/mysql/mysqld.err...am I somehow going to be confused as to where that came from?
We've all seen the monstrosity that is the Windows Event Log...it's serves as it's own poster child for the case that binary logs are an insanely stupid idea. |
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ulenrich
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| Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2014 6:21 pm Post subject: |
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First of all I am not interested in discussion of my personal motivation with you. But
| steveL wrote: | | ulenrich wrote: | | 5. It is a race to enter the mobile market, because the Desktop is dead. |
Ah I see, so this is what you mean by the desktop "paradigm" no longer applying? Nice as mobile devices are, they don't supplant desktops, and in fact they use the desktop metaphor themselves, just with more screens. |
the change gonna come is deeper than you think. How do we will feel using an i-watch-phone together with many other sources in the car, in the house and at the restaurant or store? Words like "mobile" or "cloud" don't catch it yet. I am pretty sure the bestseller books about it will offer hitting new metaphors when discussing this as a paradigmatical change not only in computing but of everyday life. |
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ulenrich
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| Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2014 6:44 pm Post subject: |
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| tld wrote: | | steveL wrote: | | ulenrich wrote: | < 4. It doesn't follow the Linux (Unix) philosophy of simple plain-text logs.
> 4. It doesn't follow Linux habit to just provide simple plain-text logs without context |
What does that even mean? This again is a half-baked "solution" looking for someone to care.
|
I was about to ask what in God's earth the missing "context" was...like when I see a log message, with a time stamp in the file /var/log/mysql/mysqld.err...am I somehow going to be confused as to where that came from?
We've all seen the monstrosity that is the Windows Event Log...it's serves as it's own poster child for the case that binary logs are an insanely stupid idea. |
If you see some list of points an author wants to discuss, don't take it as support of your opinion before reading:
http://www.zdnet.com/article/stepping-into-the-systemd-quagmire/
| Quote: | 4. It doesn't follow the Linux (Unix) philosophy of simple plain-text logs.
Linux (and Unix) logs have almost exclusively been kept in plain text files. This has a lot of advantages - you can read them and grep them very easily to find things being one of the biggest.
Systemd keeps its logs in binary format, and then provides utility programs to read and display them. How big of a problem is this? It clearly has an impact on convenience, and it might come back to bite us in areas like scanning across multiple different logs, looking for something that you aren't quite sure what/where it might be. But Linux admins who have had to wrestle with multi-gigabyte text files might not think this is such a bad idea, and it seems like a lot of the resistance on this specific point is more simple resistance to change per se rather than being specific to the text/binary file format. |
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Fitzcarraldo
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| Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2014 7:15 pm Post subject: |
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ulenrich,
Your blue-skying does not automatically mean the desktop paradigm is obsolete; it simply means there are additional or complementary means of carrying out some tasks.
The desktop paradigm is certainly not superseded. Just because people use a touch-and-swipe UI on tablets or smartphones does not mean that they don't want to use a traditional desktop UI on PCs and laptops. I own a tablet and a smartphone, but I'm typing this using a traditional desktop UI because I find it easier, faster and more accurate than using a touch-and-swipe UI. By choice I use the traditional desktop UI when I'm at my desk, because my productivity is higher as a result. Offices around the world are full of desktop PCs and laptops, and they are not going to switch to touch-and-swipe interfaces when the traditional desktop UI is better for the majority of tasks in offices. Look at the reception Windows 8/8.1, which tried to move away from the traditional desktop UI, received from businesses (and from home users, come to that). A few days ago I watched someone using a Microsoft Surface tablet. He used the Windows 8.1 desktop UI rather than the Metro UI, and did everything using the keyboard and a mouse. If I look across open-plan offices I see a sea of desktops and laptops using the traditional desktop UI. Will they be replaced by tablets or smartphones? No. Will their UI be replaced by a touch-and-swipe UI? Unlikely. Do their users use smartphones and tablets too? Sure. When I'm away from my desk I use a smartphone or tablet; when I'm at my desk I use a laptop with the conventional desktop UI, an external mouse, monitor and keyboard. That isn't going to change any time soon. Do the workstations at Weta Workshop use the desktop paradigm? You bet they do.
You make it sound as if systemd is the only way forward and OpenRC is for hackers. That is not the case. I have never had to mess around with OpenRC; no 'personal hackary' is involved. I have used OpenRC since 2007 and it has never caused me a problem. It just works. What advantage would typing 'systemctl start cups.service' instead of 'rc-service cupsd start' give me? None. The subsumption of udev by systemd on the other hand has wasted many hours of my time (to the point that just the mention of udev puts me on edge). And the nugatory subsumption by systemd of the suspend and hibernate functions previously in upower has also wasted my time unnecessarily. I don't need systemd. It provides nothing I can't do just as easily already. So why should I be forced to spend precious time and effort switching to it and ditching something that works fine already? Because allegedly it's 'better'? If others find systemd useful, fine, but you can't convince me I am living 'in the deadlands' because I am not interested in switching to systemd or because I prefer the desktop UI to a touch-and-swipe UI on my laptops and desktop PCs. Horses for courses.
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khayyam
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| Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2014 7:47 pm Post subject: |
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| ulenrich wrote: | | First of all I am not interested in discussion of my personal motivation with you. But |
ulenrich ... which of course is another way of saying that whatever the "motivation", however unsupported by fact, etc, etc ... its not open for discussion. Besides the fact that I, and probably others, don't care what your "personal motivation" is, if you have an argument (which, as I read the above, you don't) its this we would challenge, if, in fact we could see such an argument ... but then we, your protagonists, are probably in thrall of some "evil magician putting a spell on us". That's how to get one under the wire, you throw some diversion in there to black your protagonists, mix in some vague terminology, then say "thar is me argument ... me no discussie" ... and we are supposed to take this as, 1), seriously worth responding to, and 2), more than simply trolling.
| ulenrich wrote: | | the change gonna come is deeper than you think. How do we will feel using an i-watch-phone together with many other sources in the car, in the house and at the restaurant or store? Words like "mobile" or "cloud" don't catch it yet. I am pretty sure the bestseller books about it will offer hitting new metaphors when discussing this as a paradigmatical change not only in computing but of everyday life. |
The "metaphor" you are looking for is "panopticon", but anyhow, as this is *your* premonition of future things then the burden of proof is on you to show how A (systemd), is a pathway to B ("paradigmatical (sic) change") because to me this is nothing but sales talk and I think your engaging in polemics that are, like all psychic premonitions, quite simply unjustifiable in substance.
best ... khay |
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ulenrich
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| Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2014 8:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Fitzcarraldo wrote: | | Your blue-skying does not automatically mean the desktop paradigm is obsolete; it simply means there are additional or complementary means of carrying out some tasks. |
Yes, for sure the desktop will stay as long as there is no more effective tool working. The "Desktop is dead" is a "metaphor" describing developers target other purposes than developing the desktop.
Fitzcarraldo,
I think of it dark-skying: In a future just arriving as of now the dumb rich guy will show up having superceding mind capabilities in a way the poor intellectuals will not be able to compete with him. The gap between rich and poor will widen in a frightning way.
| Quote: | | The desktop paradigm is certainly not superseded. Just because people use a touch-and-swipe UI on tablets or smartphones does not mean that they don't want to use a traditional desktop UI on PCs and laptops. I own a tablet and a smartphone, but I'm typing this using a traditional desktop UI because I find it easier, faster and more accurate than using a touch-and-swipe UI. |
If there will be more effective interfaces, the "Desktop" has the destiny of the mechanical typewriter. It is a matter of time. Of course there are some paperback writers (in an old Beatles song how an author is called) not touching digital equipment nowadays.
| Quote: | | You make it sound as if systemd is the only way forward and OpenRC is for hackers. That is not the case. |
That is the case regarded as such by everyone not a Gentoo user. There might be a bunch of Debian people opposing, but they are truly Gentoo hearted people, but they don't know yet.
| Quote: | | I have used OpenRC since 2007 and it has never caused me a problem. It just works. What advantage would typing 'systemctl start cups.service' instead of 'rc-service cupsd start' give me? None. |
None, and this is your use case keeping openrc alive. I know of some other use cases in favor of openrc.
At last an example simple as this: If a young couple is having both that i-watch thingy and they decide to openly provide there arousal data to each other. Now they are visiting a party together and feel the others heart beating at their wrist. Do they think of their fancy gadget in terms of a desktop? |
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avx
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| Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2014 8:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | At last an example simple as this: If a young couple is having both that i-watch thingy and they decide to openly provide there arousal data to each other. Now they are visiting a party together and feel the others heart beating at their wrist. Do they think of their fancy gadget in terms of a desktop? |
You'd need an i-cock and i-headache and even then the situation isn't different/better.
Until displays with customizable tactile feedback are the norm and they also have a technology to simulate a "feelable" button and/or there's perfect voice dictation(which people won't use in public), desktops will not go out of style, not as long as there are heavy gamers who spend a lot more than average on their systems or there are people needing to write a lot of text - I highly doubt that systemd helps in writing the next systemd successor on a phone.
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tld
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| Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2014 9:42 pm Post subject: |
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| ulenrich wrote: | If you see some list of points an author wants to discuss, don't take it as support of your opinion before reading:
http://www.zdnet.com/article/stepping-into-the-systemd-quagmire/
| Quote: | 4. It doesn't follow the Linux (Unix) philosophy of simple plain-text logs.
Linux (and Unix) logs have almost exclusively been kept in plain text files. This has a lot of advantages - you can read them and grep them very easily to find things being one of the biggest.
Systemd keeps its logs in binary format, and then provides utility programs to read and display them. How big of a problem is this? It clearly has an impact on convenience, and it might come back to bite us in areas like scanning across multiple different logs, looking for something that you aren't quite sure what/where it might be. But Linux admins who have had to wrestle with multi-gigabyte text files might not think this is such a bad idea, and it seems like a lot of the resistance on this specific point is more simple resistance to change per se rather than being specific to the text/binary file format. |
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Since when did I say I agreed with him? You're the one that brought up the whole "without context" thing...not him. I was disagreeing with that.
I did read that and I couldn't disagree with him more on that point. Who the fuck ever has "multi-gigabyte" log files? Has he never heard of logrotate? What I especially don't get is that in the same paragraph he admits they're an "impact on convenience". I've never heard an argument for binary log formats that made even a shred of sense...and I don't see you jumping in to defend this "no context" thing either. |
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ulenrich
Veteran
Joined: 10 Oct 2010
Posts: 1480
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| Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2014 9:48 pm Post subject: |
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| avx wrote: | | You'd need an i-cock and i-headache and even then the situation isn't different/better. |
Yes, I do have an i-headache already and want to swap with any of your [a-z]-cock for the better of situations.
| Quote: | | Until displays with customizable tactile feedback are the norm and they also have a technology to simulate a "feelable" |
The i-watch back will have some vibrating/knocking feature. For sure the "dolphins view" into each other will be advertized if the marketing crew thinks of it not scary for customers. For medical purpose it is announced already, but there showing the health data on the physicians desktop.
| Quote: | | doubt that systemd helps in writing the next systemd successor on a phone. |
Darwin is the software heart of every i-phone. Why should they not have used launchD to build up their fully harmonized system services. If you don't mind the different name of an equivalent thing .... |
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Anon-E-moose
Watchman
Joined: 23 May 2008
Posts: 6098
Location: Dallas area
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| Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2014 11:02 pm Post subject: |
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| khayyam wrote: | | ulenrich wrote: | | First of all I am not interested in discussion of my personal motivation with you. But |
ulenrich ... which of course is another way of saying that whatever the "motivation", however unsupported by fact, etc, etc ... its not open for discussion. Besides the fact that I, and probably others, don't care what your "personal motivation" is, if you have an argument (which, as I read the above, you don't) its this we would challenge, if, in fact we could see such an argument ... but then we, your protagonists, are probably in thrall of some "evil magician putting a spell on us". That's how to get one under the wire, you throw some diversion in there to black your protagonists, mix in some vague terminology, then say "thar is me argument ... me no discussie" ... and we are supposed to take this as, 1), seriously worth responding to, and 2), more than simply trolling. |
Given his past trolling on these types of threads, he's here as the token sysd fanboi seeking to get another thread locked.
If he wants to be butthurt that not everyone is in the mood for his brand of kookaid, that's his problem.
Everyone just ignore him.
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PRIME x570-pro, 3700x, 6.1 zen kernel
gcc 13, profile 17.0 (custom bare multilib), openrc, wayland |
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