Implementing systemd

eflothmeier · n00b Joined: 20 Sep 2014 Posts: 58 Location: Tucson, AZ

Systemd,
Is so fundamental to the run control that 2 things have to happen:

1) the stage3 tarball has to be OpenRC-free with systemd the only show in
town.

2) The Gentoo handbook has to be reworded in terms of systemd and
OpenRC stuff eliminated.

The more I read the systemd wiki. The more I think this will happen automatically.
Installing a stage3 tarball as it stands now, and then putting systemd over it
is rather like changing the engine on a airplane while it's flying thru the air. Alas
if it were only a matter of throwing some switches in the kernel config, but it's
not.

I'm predicting that Gentoo will first offer a choice: Systemd-ers will get their
tarball & documentation. While old-school OperRC-ers will be happy with theirs

I think systemd is here to stay.

Erich

The Doctor · Moderator Joined: 27 Jul 2010 Posts: 2678

Starting a flamewar like this isn't going to end well.

Gentoo is primarily aimed at the power user base, many of whom simply don't use or need systemd. We have already seen an influx of new users specifically because Gentoo uses OpenRC and not systemd so there really doesn't seem to be any reason to change the defaults.

Also, switching to systemd is dead simple. I don't get where your challenge comes from. Honestly, I think my first install of KDE was more complex than my first install of systemd (which lasted for about a week before I threw it away).
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i92guboj · Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2014 6:47 am Post subject:

Yeah, of course. Then we could also get a handbook for X'ers and another for tty'ers, and one for gcc'ers and another one for clang'ers, that'd be just 8 handbooks multiplied by the number of architectures. Easy.

If we start adding every crazy idea we might not know where to stop :lol:

The handbook is ok as it is. There's a default way to install Gentoo, and links to documents that describe how to add features, or how to substitute core components with alternatives. This happens for some daemons like the logger or the crond daemon, and I fail to see how systemd is different, regardless of how much you love it.

In any case, this is not a support question, so moving it to GC.

If you want to suggest improvements to the Handbook, I suggest you join the relevant mailing lists and get in touch with the people there, learn how it works, learn how to submit bugs about documentation properly and try to iron it a bit. Documentation maintainers (just like the rest of the developers) usually will be more open to collaboration when there are patches over the table and when those patches are not disruptive.

Anon-E-moose · Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2014 10:00 am Post subject:

Roman_Gruber · Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2014 10:08 am Post subject:

First of all please be so kind and search the forum for relevant posts before starting a new one. Therefore this topic deserves to be delted.

Now I understand why some game forums delete some posts instantly.
Gentoo is very friendly to keep such flame posts for everyone.

Fitzcarraldo · Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2014 10:13 am Post subject:

Just needs to be merged with Why is Gentoo not switching to systemd? thread. Same topic.
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steveL · Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2014 11:05 am Post subject: Re: Implementing systemd

depontius · Advocate Joined: 05 May 2004 Posts: 3509

Let's not feed the trolls.
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steveL · Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2014 11:40 am Post subject:

Sorry, I felt it was important to point out that what the OP is mandating, is nothing less than the elimination of choice on Gentoo.

The same choice which allowed Linux to develop in the first place, as well as form the basis for all the projects sucked into systemd, or depended on by it. It descends from the "traditional" Unix practice of distributing software as source, which took off with Unix from about 1970/1.

Perhaps I should have constrained myself to that aspect, though. My bad.

Roman_Gruber · Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2014 12:09 pm Post subject:

Funny such posters have usually a very low post count. Does this reflect that they came over from somewhere else to the sole purpose of trolling? Or are even paid from some company to spread rumours / flame posts? These questions will be never answered. I doubt a slight insight of how this distro works / offers / anything else at all.

avx · Advocate Joined: 21 Jun 2004 Posts: 2152

i92guboj · Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2014 2:01 pm Post subject:

That would also be disproportionate.

At most we would consider an "off the walld" section.

steveL · Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2014 2:20 pm Post subject:

eflothmeier · n00b Joined: 20 Sep 2014 Posts: 58 Location: Tucson, AZ

Sorry,
Actually, my bad. I put the post in the wrong forum
in the first place.

Erich

happosai · n00b Joined: 17 Aug 2005 Posts: 43

You can have Systemd all the way you want: just take a look at it on the Wiki page, emerge it, run it, and be happy. No need for extra tarballs or new handbooks.

eflothmeier · n00b Joined: 20 Sep 2014 Posts: 58 Location: Tucson, AZ

It's dangerous to follow the systemd wiki. In particular.
there's the /run directory. Since openRC uses it
there's the possibility that systemd could clobber
something openRC wrote so that if you made a mistake
you couldn't get back.

There are bugs that effect /etc/mtab

It looks as if root password set under openRC is
no longer valid, and you must also set it under systemd
(The same goes for locale & time/date)

I look at this little tidbit in my dmesg:

[ 4.760639] systemd-udevd[1042]: starting version 216
[ 5.355510] systemd-udevd[1055]: renamed network interface eth0 to enp2s8

...and it looks as if systemd is creeping in around the edges.
That's right. I had to change from eth0 to enp2s8 in certain
files in order to get the network interface to work
(This is new stuff in the handbook, by the way)

So, Let me know. Is there a systemd aficianado out there that
used the instructions to implement systemd?

Erich

roki942 · Posted: Tue Oct 21, 2014 7:29 am Post subject:

Am I the only one who finds it amusing when a fanboi can't get systemd to work?

Anon-E-moose · Posted: Tue Oct 21, 2014 9:21 am Post subject:

depontius · Advocate Joined: 05 May 2004 Posts: 3509

djdunn · l33t Joined: 26 Dec 2004 Posts: 810

About the mono-culture in Linux, that's a good point about the compilers and c libraries also don't forget that linux is a child of UNIX and there's other kernels in the opensource *nix world too. You have a number of BSD kernels to choose from. You have OpenIndiana, you have hurd. we all seem to identify ourselves around a particular kernel. But we can't forget that we are apart of a bigger community than just Gentoo or even Linux. not to mention the closedsource versions of *NIX too. We can't forget that we are more alike than we are different.

Back in the day there was the BSD's, GNU, and maybe a few other little ones out around there. Then Linus brought Linux into the world. In the beginning calling Linux GNU/linux was wholly appropriate but the ability and freedom in GNU to choice a different kernel allowed Linux to be born, and we still have that same freedom of choice when it comes to any other part of this diverse and complex ecosystem. Someday its very possible for a GNU based linux to throw off all remainders of GNU if it is so chosen. It's wrong to say that there is ever only 1 choice for anything or there is ever a monolithic dependency in the *nix world. it existed before GNU, and will exist after GNU.

What is unique about systemd, is the speed of its takeover despite a number of technical flaws. Also it is quite agressive for an opensource project and attempts to sabotage other systems constantly adding features making sure the distros support them, then removing support for the alternative (think how systemd absorbed udev and removed udev module loading, and promised that dbus support will be dropped from systemd as soon as kdbus is ready.) You think that once the systemd cabel takes complete control over all of Linux creating SystemdOS that they will stop there??? Whats next Android? BSD? OpenIndiana? I have never seen such fuss about a single component of any operating system as systemd has.
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eflothmeier · n00b Joined: 20 Sep 2014 Posts: 58 Location: Tucson, AZ

Didn't find it until now:

https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Systemd/Installing_Gnome3_from_scratch

This actually satisfies the desire of the original post for this thread.
I my case, though, I've already configured the kernel & set locale
& keymaps, etc. So it may be necessary to uninstall the kernel,
(clear the link (usr/src/linux)?), and start from there.

The Gentoo Handbook is out there as our crown jewel of documentation.
while this one is buried away in the wiki, Oh. well, that's why I like
Gentoo. It gets you to learn something about Linux

Erich

steveL · Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2014 9:46 am Post subject:

poncho · Tux's lil' helper Joined: 06 Mar 2011 Posts: 92

steveL · Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2014 5:47 pm Post subject:

eflothmeier · n00b Joined: 20 Sep 2014 Posts: 58 Location: Tucson, AZ

I fear systemd,
Is going to become ever more a struggle for the refusniks,
If for no other reason than it is required by Gnome 3

Changing a profile merely changes the set of use flags
It does nothing to restrict the portage tree update.

Witness:
https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-977288.html

There they are trying to cling to the good old days of (< gnome 3)
This will eventually fail if for no other reason than Gentoo is
allotted only so much space on a mirror, and will have to
remove old versions of Gnome to make room for new.

There is the potential that other upstream applications
will get on board with systemd to further tie us in knots.

There is a lot of fear about systemd because it is such an
unknown, and so pervasive.

My own personal questions about it. I'll post here.

1) I like rc-update. Will that still be present under systemd?

2) There are installation blocks between udev and systemd
is there new version of udev being developed?

Erich