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RazielFMX
l33t
Joined: 23 Apr 2005
Posts: 835
Location: NY, USA
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 Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2015 8:27 pm Post subject: |
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| greyspoke wrote: | | Razzy, I am not quite sure what your network needs are, but when I installed systemd I just looked for a service that looked like it would do the trick network-wise and dhcpcd.service did so, it starts interfaces as well as obtaining an ip address, and it will start wpa_supplicant for you for wireless interfaces. I use a wired connection right now, but from what I recall it did it well. Maybe netctl adds something, but dhcpcd appears to do a basic job well. |
The networking device always appears as a physical ethernet device even if it happens to be WiFi on the host operating system (which is super convenient). I did have networking functional with dhcpcd.service, however, open-vm-tools on Arch recommends either NetworkManager or netctl (I'm assuming to allow the host os to control the networking device in the guest OS via a predictable tool). I didn't look much into it, honestly, I just spent 20 minutes getting netctl to behave and moved on.
But yeah, if this wasn't a VM, I would absolutely let dhcpcd control everything; it is what I use on my bare metal, systemd-free Gentoo installs.
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bstaletic
Apprentice
Joined: 05 Apr 2014
Posts: 253
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| Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2015 11:12 pm Post subject: |
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RazielFMX,
There's also something like systemctl list-all-services (or something like that, I know it starts with systemctl list-).
I'd suggest triing systemd-networkd, as it is the fastest, and I never had any troubles with it.
As for the log, take a look at -x flag which (if I remember correctly) shows journal from its very begining. And recently it became possible to send journal's content to, for example, syslog-ng, but the default can't be turned off.
Another option is installing openrc on Arch, which is pretty straith forward. I'm writing from Arch with openrc and no traces of systemd (there's eudev-systemdcompat). If you want I'll post the link to the thread for installing openrc and eudev on Arch. |
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mv
Watchman
Joined: 20 Apr 2005
Posts: 6747
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| Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2015 5:36 am Post subject: |
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| greyspoke wrote: | | but dhcpcd appears to do a basic job well. |
Yes, if a basic job is sufficient for you, dhcpcd is sufficient. If you need e.g. pppd, it is not. |
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steveL
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Joined: 13 Sep 2006
Posts: 5153
Location: The Peanut Gallery
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| Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2015 6:39 am Post subject: |
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| mv wrote: | | Yes, if a basic job is sufficient for you, dhcpcd is sufficient. If you need e.g. pppd, it is not. |
I'm sure you're right, but I just find this odd. I used to have pppd for dial-up back in the very late 90s, so I'd be curious as to how things are done nowadays; and what for, out of interest. |
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mv
Watchman
Joined: 20 Apr 2005
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| Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2015 9:16 am Post subject: |
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| steveL wrote: | | I used to have pppd for dial-up back in the very late 90s, so I'd be curious as to how things are done nowadays |
At home, I have a TDSL connection (which is a German variant of ADSL with an additional tunnelling into another protocoll). Unless you buy a special router with an adsl-modem built-in (and with all the security issues such a router possibly has, especially if it also provides wireless) your computer has to do this connection using pppd (or, alternatively, using rp-pppoe).
Another occasion where I needed pppd not so long ago is for pptp which in turn was needed to encrypt wireless (and also wired for guests) connections in the university network on my previous university. (AFAIK, they have changed this only very recently due to some vulnerabilities of pptp). |
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tld
Veteran
Joined: 09 Dec 2003
Posts: 1816
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| Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2015 5:59 pm Post subject: |
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| steveL wrote: | | I used to have pppd for dial-up back in the very late 90s, so I'd be curious as to how things are done nowadays; and what for, out of interest. |
Wow...what a flashback! I was just recalling how I had some daemon setup (can't even recall what it was named) that would auto dial when needed when any process tried to access the internet. I also had my wifes old Windows 95 system setup to use my Linux machine as a gateway so she could share the modem utilizing the same auto dial stuff...pretty crazy stuff thinking back. Don't miss that much  . |
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depontius
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Joined: 05 May 2004
Posts: 3509
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| Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2015 6:15 pm Post subject: |
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| tld wrote: | | (can't even recall what it was named) |
diald
I didn't go that way. My first PC was a firesale XT286 - basically a PC-AT in an XT case. I kept enhancing it year after year, until one day I realized that I was simply a keyboard away from having a second computer. So I bought the keyboard and got a pair of flea-market ethernet cards, a crossover network, and I had my first LAN. At that point both were 386+ machines running Linux - one a desktop and one a dedicated firewall. I used xinetd to run a service, and by ticking a port from the desktop machine, the server would dial my ISP. The desktop had a button on TK-Goodstuff to start/stop that. Oh, and the server was running the wwwoffle proxy.
Ah, the good old days.
The other day I was cleaning out the workshop, and came across a US Robotics modem, not sure if it was 28.8 or 33.6. Just couldn't pitch it, though I have no idea where I could even dial, these days.
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Aiken
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Joined: 22 Jan 2003
Posts: 239
Location: Toowoomba/Australia
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| Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2015 10:11 pm Post subject: |
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| steveL wrote: | | mv wrote: | | Yes, if a basic job is sufficient for you, dhcpcd is sufficient. If you need e.g. pppd, it is not. |
I'm sure you're right, but I just find this odd. I used to have pppd for dial-up back in the very late 90s, so I'd be curious as to how things are done nowadays; and what for, out of interest. |
Ppp for connecting via adsl. The isp uses pppoe and I have a gentoo box that is my router with the adsl modem in bridge mode. One thing that did annoy me with openrc in this regard I could not do a 'net.ppp0' stop until I put a custom predown() in /etc/conf.d/net or edit net.lo to remove the net_fs check. That machine runs diskless nia nfs on eth1 and by default I could not stop ppp0 because / is on a net fs even though ppp0 has nothing to do with /.
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Ant P.
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Joined: 18 Apr 2009
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| Posted: Thu Jan 22, 2015 7:33 pm Post subject: |
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| mv wrote: | | greyspoke wrote: | | but dhcpcd appears to do a basic job well. |
Yes, if a basic job is sufficient for you, dhcpcd is sufficient. If you need e.g. pppd, it is not. |
For non-basic things (i.e. the hell that is getting bluetooth networking to function), I've been using net-misc/connman. I presume it'd do ppp connections too, looking at the useflags, but I don't feel like finding out myself. |
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mv
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Joined: 20 Apr 2005
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| Posted: Thu Jan 22, 2015 9:17 pm Post subject: |
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| depontius wrote: | | tld wrote: | | (can't even recall what it was named) |
diald |
It is not so long ago that I had to use this to operate some wireless internet stick. |
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steveL
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Joined: 13 Sep 2006
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Location: The Peanut Gallery
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| Posted: Thu Jan 22, 2015 9:29 pm Post subject: |
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| steveL wrote: | | I used to have pppd for dial-up back in the very late 90s, so I'd be curious as to how things are done nowadays; and what for, out of interest. |
| mv wrote: | At home, I have a TDSL connection (which is a German variant of ADSL with an additional tunnelling into another protocoll). Unless you buy a special router with an adsl-modem built-in (and with all the security issues such a router possibly has, especially if it also provides wireless) your computer has to do this connection using pppd (or, alternatively, using rp-pppoe).
Another occasion where I needed pppd not so long ago is for pptp which in turn was needed to encrypt wireless (and also wired for guests) connections in the university network on my previous university. (AFAIK, they have changed this only very recently due to some vulnerabilities of pptp). |
OK, that's the what, if not the how. I figured that sort of thing, as ADSL routers in the UK use pppoe as Aiken mentions, but ofc we don't have to worry about it on the LAN. Only in something like openWRT.
| Aiken wrote: | | Ppp for connecting via adsl. The isp uses pppoe and I have a gentoo box that is my router with the adsl modem in bridge mode. One thing that did annoy me with openrc in this regard I could not do a 'net.ppp0' stop until I put a custom predown() in /etc/conf.d/net or edit net.lo to remove the net_fs check. That machine runs diskless nia nfs on eth1 and by default I could not stop ppp0 because / is on a net fs even though ppp0 has nothing to do with /. |
Hmm that's much more up my street; had to mess around with initscript dependencies for udev setup (which I must put some time into this week.)
Sounds like you're still using netifrc. How does the dhcpcd-only setup mess up ppp exactly? I know there's a page on the wiki about network-dependent services, but it's not something that affects me. (though the crappy js on the wiki is a pita.)
| tld wrote: | | Wow...what a flashback! I was just recalling how I had some daemon setup (can't even recall what it was named) that would auto dial when needed when any process tried to access the internet. I also had my wifes old Windows 95 system setup to use my Linux machine as a gateway so she could share the modem utilizing the same auto dial stuff...pretty crazy stuff thinking back. Don't miss that much ;). |
Heh I had that exact thought after I posted.. ISTR something about ifup and ifdown scripts, and /etc/chaps.conf (or something to do with chaps secrets, whatever they were..) Not sure if ifup and ifdown were from back then, or a few years later. That's kinda why I'm trying to get some refresher info on what's occurring nowadays.
And yeah, I don't miss it either, hehe :-) |
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WWWW
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 30 Nov 2014
Posts: 143
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| Posted: Mon Jan 26, 2015 4:25 pm Post subject: |
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| RazielFMX wrote: |
Here is what I don't like:
1) netctl is the worst piece of shit ever; it effectively required a rain dance and some voodoo to get working (it was this or network manager for open-vm-tools; this was already there). I'll share the absurdity of what I did if you are really curious: bottom line is file name matters so don't follow any of the documentation or how-to documents.
2) You would think that if you added a "service" aka daemon to be started on boot, its dependencies would also be started. Nope. You just get a cryptic error about dependencies not being started... but it doesn't tell you which ones. So helpful and noob friendly, right? Maybe I did something wrong? See #1.
3) OpenRC and its /etc/init.d make super easy to see what can be run. That and rc-status -a. I haven't yet found the equivalent systemd command...
4) WTF Timers? What happened to cron? I need to create multiple files for a single cron task? Are you kidding me?
5) cat /var/log/journald.... wait. journalctl | grep .... And where did my log go on reboot?
6) systemd fails at cgroups, but it is ok, because that error from the kernel you see during shutdown doesn't actually matter since the system is coming down anyway... (paraphrased from he Arch forums).
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oh man! your rant had cracking me up!!
I haven't deal with systemd closely but when I did the most I had to used was journalctl, the shittest implementation on the entire evolution of mankin!! I swear to god, it makes cuneiform clay tablets writing a kids reading exercise in comparison. |
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Aiken
Apprentice
Joined: 22 Jan 2003
Posts: 239
Location: Toowoomba/Australia
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| Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2015 12:05 pm Post subject: |
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| steveL wrote: |
Hmm that's much more up my street; had to mess around with initscript dependencies for udev setup (which I must put some time into this week.)
Sounds like you're still using netifrc. How does the dhcpcd-only setup mess up ppp exactly? I know there's a page on the wiki about network-dependent services, but it's not something that affects me. (though the crappy js on the wiki is a pita.)
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Using netifrc for the networking and the code that checks if / is on a network fs is in openrc. The way I read the code a check is done for / on a network fs but not which interface is used. This is one of my gripes with openrc with the other being the number of times I have done a /etc/init.d/<service> stop and the service didn't. I got into the habit of instead of 'radvd restart' I used 'radvd stop; killall radvd; radvd start'. There were others and they were intermittent. That was the 1st that came to mind. Hopefully not coincidence, have not had that problem since upgrading openrc 5 days ago.
Don't know what dhcpcd would do in that setting. Everything on that box is static and I stopped using dhcpcd on any computer when I found some of my network renumbered when I did not want it renumbered. All my dns entries were already configured for the mac derived addresses and when I want a different address I either set it statically or use systctl to enable tempaddr which I could not get working if dhcpcd used it's slaac on setting.
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khayyam
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Joined: 07 Jun 2012
Posts: 6227
Location: Room 101
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| Posted: Sun Feb 01, 2015 4:19 pm Post subject: |
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We can add >=sys-apps/usbutils-008 to the list of apps that now require {systemd}-udev ... you probably didn't notice that ;)
build.log
| Code: | checking for UDEV... no
configure: error: Package requirements (libudev >= 196) were not met: |
| Code: | % equery -NC depgraph -l =sys-apps/usbutils-008
* Searching for usbutils008 in sys-apps ...
* dependency graph for sys-apps/usbutils-008
[ 0] sys-apps/usbutils-008 M[package.mask]
[ 1] virtual/libusb-1-r1 (virtual/libusb) x86
[ 1] sys-libs/zlib-1.2.8-r1 (sys-libs/zlib) x86
[ 1] app-arch/xz-utils-5.0.8 (app-arch/xz-utils) x86
[ 1] virtual/pkgconfig-0-r1 (virtual/pkgconfig) ~x86
[ 1] sys-apps/hwids-20141010 (sys-apps/hwids) x86
[ 1] dev-lang/python-2.7.9-r1 (>=dev-lang/python-2.7.5-r2) x86
[ 1] dev-lang/python-exec-2.0.1-r1 (dev-lang/python-exec) x86 [python_targets_python2_7(-)? -python_single_target_jython2_5(-) -python_single_target_jython2_7(-) -python_single_target_pypy(-) -python_single_target_pypy3(-) -python_single_target_python3_3(-) -python_single_target_python3_4(-) python_single_target_python2_7(+)]
[ sys-apps/usbutils-008 stats: packages (8), max depth (1) ] |
From my searches it seems that this is causing systemd to be a dependency for this package on some distros (even "embedded", slash, uClibc) as systemd-udev is only available via systemd and not as a separate package, see here and here.
best ... khay |
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NeddySeagoon
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Joined: 05 Jul 2003
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| Posted: Sun Feb 01, 2015 4:29 pm Post subject: |
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khayyam,
Thats on my list of things to investigate for old fashoned gentooee.
Lots of stuff that appears on the surface to depend on udev, still builds and works (for me) if you fix the ebuild.
udev may be preferred but its not actually required.
I don't blame the Gentoo devs for not writing ebuilds that way. Unless they have a udev free system for testing, it would be unreasonable.
I don't file bugs/patches for the same reason. There are very few users who would want them or can test them.
Unfortunately, >=sys-apps/usbutils-008 is not one of these easy cases.
Maybe I should put up a bugzilla for Old Fashoned Gentooee?
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NeddySeagoon
Computer users fall into two groups:-
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Anon-E-moose
Watchman
Joined: 23 May 2008
Posts: 6098
Location: Dallas area
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| Posted: Sun Feb 01, 2015 4:37 pm Post subject: |
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| NeddySeagoon wrote: | Lots of stuff that appears on the surface to depend on udev, still builds and works (for me) if you fix the ebuild.
udev may be preferred but its not actually required.
I don't blame the Gentoo devs for not writing ebuilds that way. Unless they have a udev free system for testing, it would be unreasonable. |
I blame them for the simple fact that it would be easy to leave it out of the ebuild and see if it compiles
or look at the requirements from the source package itself.
It's the same thing I do when I investigate whether some other dependency that a dev threw in willy-nilly is really needed for building/running.
It seems that the quality of ebuilds from the devs has been slipping over the last year or so, from my perspective.
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mv
Watchman
Joined: 20 Apr 2005
Posts: 6747
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| Posted: Sun Feb 01, 2015 4:44 pm Post subject: |
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| khayyam wrote: | | We can add >=sys-apps/usbutils-008 to the list of apps that now require {systemd}-udev |
If you look at the author list, the reason becomes obvious:
| usbutils-008/NEWS wrote: | Tom Gundersen (2):
lsusb: port to hwdb
drop dependency on usb.ids |
Yet another piece of software occupied by RedHat and turned to a piece of useless crap. |
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NeddySeagoon
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| Posted: Sun Feb 01, 2015 4:51 pm Post subject: |
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Anon-E-moose,
Build testing would require a udev free system, or al least some form of sandbox that only made the declared dependancies available during build and run time testing.
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NeddySeagoon
Computer users fall into two groups:-
those that do backups
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khayyam
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Location: Room 101
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| Posted: Sun Feb 01, 2015 4:52 pm Post subject: |
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| NeddySeagoon wrote: | Thats on my list of things to investigate for old fashoned gentooee.
Lots of stuff that appears on the surface to depend on udev, still builds and works (for me) if you fix the ebuild. udev may be preferred but its not actually required. |
Neddy ... I think in the case of usbutils it is a build requirement ...
configure.ac
| Code: | | PKG_CHECK_MODULES(UDEV, libudev >= 196) |
names.c
| Code: | | #include <libudev.h> |
| NeddySeagoon wrote: | | I don't blame the Gentoo devs for not writing ebuilds that way. Unless they have a udev free system for testing, it would be unreasonable. |
Right, so we should get rid of pretence of supporting alternatives via virtual/dev-manager because actually we don't, at least we don't *actively* support it. We pay lip service to the idea is all. Eventually I expect to hear "gentoo without systemd has been broken for a long time ... its needed for coreutils to build/function". Whats more is that unless your virtual/dev-manager == {systemd,udev,eudev} you probably won't notice the dependency.
| NeddySeagoon wrote: | | Maybe I should put up a bugzilla for Old Fashoned Gentooee? |
To quote Groucho Marx ... "I'd never be a member of a club that would have me as a member", but as its just you and me, I'll make an exception ;)
best ... khay |
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mv
Watchman
Joined: 20 Apr 2005
Posts: 6747
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| Posted: Sun Feb 01, 2015 4:57 pm Post subject: |
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| khayyam wrote: | | I think in the case of usbutils it is a build requirement .. |
Not only. Haven't you read my posting above? More or less, usbutils has turned into a wrapper to the udev hardware database, only. |
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khayyam
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Joined: 07 Jun 2012
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Location: Room 101
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| Posted: Sun Feb 01, 2015 4:58 pm Post subject: |
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| mv wrote: | If you look at the author list, the reason becomes obvious:
| usbutils-008/NEWS wrote: | Tom Gundersen (2):
lsusb: port to hwdb
drop dependency on usb.ids |
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... and ...
| usbutils-008/NEWS wrote: | Greg Kroah-Hartman (8):
lsusb: fix incorrect printf() for CAPS
lsusb-t: handle problem if there is no usb bus list
.gitignore: add compile to the list of things we need to ignore |
| mv wrote: | | Yet another piece of software occupied by RedHat and turned to a piece of useless crap. |
I wonder what necessary function systemd-udev is "making easier" ... /sys/bus/usb/devices/ is a mess :)
best ... khay |
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khayyam
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Location: Room 101
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| Posted: Sun Feb 01, 2015 5:01 pm Post subject: |
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| mv wrote: | | khayyam wrote: | | I think in the case of usbutils it is a build requirement .. |
Not only. Haven't you read my posting above? More or less, usbutils has turned into a wrapper to the udev hardware database, only. |
mv ... no I hadn't, I was replying to Neddy while you were posting .... yes, oh, yes, I see!
best ... khay |
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NeddySeagoon
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| Posted: Sun Feb 01, 2015 5:07 pm Post subject: |
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khayyam,
To gloss over a few details, systemd, udev and eudev are three different ways to get the same thing.
As you say, virtual/dev-manager does not provide alternatives.
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NeddySeagoon
Computer users fall into two groups:-
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mv
Watchman
Joined: 20 Apr 2005
Posts: 6747
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| Posted: Sun Feb 01, 2015 5:10 pm Post subject: |
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| khayyam wrote: | | mv wrote: | If you look at the author list, the reason becomes obvious:
| usbutils-008/NEWS wrote: | Tom Gundersen (2):
lsusb: port to hwdb
drop dependency on usb.ids |
|
... and ...
| usbutils-008/NEWS wrote: | Greg Kroah-Hartman (8):
lsusb: fix incorrect printf() for CAPS
lsusb-t: handle problem if there is no usb bus list
.gitignore: add compile to the list of things we need to ignore |
|
Greg's changes are not essential. Tom's changes on the other hand can be translated into:
1. Make udev a hard dependency of usbutils.
2. Now that udev does almost everything which usbutils used to do, the previous functionality of usbutils becomes removed completely. |
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Anon-E-moose
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Joined: 23 May 2008
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Location: Dallas area
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| Posted: Sun Feb 01, 2015 5:14 pm Post subject: |
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| khayyam wrote: | | I wonder what necessary function systemd-udev is "making easier" |
The "pinky and the brain" function 
ie. Brain: The same thing we do every night, Pinky - try to take over the world
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