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amulet_linux
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Joined: 26 Apr 2014
Posts: 65
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 Posted: Wed Jan 07, 2015 4:51 pm Post subject: Does Gentoo work perfect using both Openrc and Systemd? |
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I've been using systemd several months and works great, however today I wanted to boot using Openrc and maybe I have a little problem related to udev, so I guess I should stick to only one init system. What do you think?
Have you had any problem about it?
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eccerr0r
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Joined: 01 Jul 2004
Posts: 9679
Location: almost Mile High in the USA
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| Posted: Wed Jan 07, 2015 6:24 pm Post subject: |
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Having systemd installed and operational and switching to openrc startup without rebuilding the system without USE=systemd is sort of "unsupported". Applications will break when they expect systemd and it's not running. I'd say if systemd is running and you want to keep systemd, only use OpenRC as an emergency boot situation if needed.
Other than that, I have separate boxes running Gentoo systemd and Gentoo OpenRC, both work fine. |
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mv
Watchman
Joined: 20 Apr 2005
Posts: 6747
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| Posted: Wed Jan 07, 2015 7:11 pm Post subject: |
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I switched regularly between openrc and systemd (just switching during booting, of course not by recompiling/reinstalling anything).
I can only recommend this: It already saved me several times to using rescue cd.
It works in both directions: For instance, once openrc did not start due to "waiting for udev events" (as usual, it was an nvidia driver issue) while systemd (which uses the same udev, of course) at least could set up all other devices and provided me "regular" console and internet access. Another time I had broken some openrc configuration due to a mistake, and systemd then could safe me. The converse - that systemd breaks for some reason but openrc works fine - happens more often; usually it is systemd's fault. A recent example was the upgrade to systemd-218 after whcih randomly sockets do not work - no problems with openrc so far.
Due to this issue, I was also using past tense: Currently, systemd is so faulty, that I cannot use it. Maybe it will be fixed in the next version, but given the history of breakage of systemd so far, I am not optimistic about it. |
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amulet_linux
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Joined: 26 Apr 2014
Posts: 65
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| Posted: Wed Jan 07, 2015 8:17 pm Post subject: |
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| mv wrote: |
It works in both directions: For instance, once openrc did not start due to "waiting for udev events" (as usual, it was an nvidia driver issue) while systemd (which uses the same . |
I know someone who had had a bad time installing Gentoo because of the "waiting for udev events" message. Do nvidia drivers delay udev? even the free drivers? What was wrong? How did you solve it?
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ct85711
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Joined: 27 Sep 2005
Posts: 1791
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| Posted: Thu Jan 08, 2015 1:11 am Post subject: |
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| Typically the waiting for udev events is due to failing to load some kind of firmware. Since Redhat made it that the kernel can't automatically load necessary firmware without being specifically told so, you encounter the waiting on udev (which also doesn't load firmware either). I never had an issue with the nvidia-drivers, most I had issues with was getting the kernel load the firmware for my network card (which it never really needed, to work to begin with). |
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mv
Watchman
Joined: 20 Apr 2005
Posts: 6747
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| Posted: Thu Jan 08, 2015 8:36 am Post subject: |
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| amulet_linux wrote: | | Do nvidia drivers delay udev? even the free drivers? What was wrong? How did you solve it? |
I forgot; perhaps I had used a wrong patch for my kernel (unfortunately, two of my cards are not supported by nvidia anymore. and the other is already treated legacy, too) or I had compiled the driver for the wrong kernel or did not mask the nouveau drivers. I think it was somehow in the course of an attempt whether the nouveau drivers can be used at least for the non-accelerated display - I try every half a year or so in the hope to get rid of the poor nvidia support, finally (unsurprisingly, the attempt was again a complete failure).
However, In any case, the mistake for the udev issue was on my side since I tried something which is "documented" not to work (I just forgot now which). |
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ulenrich
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Joined: 10 Oct 2010
Posts: 1480
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| Posted: Thu Jan 08, 2015 1:44 pm Post subject: |
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| mv wrote: | ...
A recent example was the upgrade to systemd-218 after whcih randomly sockets do not work - no problems with openrc so far.
Due to this issue, I was also using past tense: Currently, systemd is so faulty, that I cannot use it. Maybe it will be fixed in the next version, but given the history of breakage of systemd so far, I am not optimistic about it. |
I refrain from using the latest systemd. There are stabilizing efforts:
http://cgit.freedesktop.org/systemd/systemd-stable/
Gentoo sometimes backports the fixes: | Quote: | systemd-217-r3 (28 Nov 2014)
28 Nov 2014; Mike Gilbert <floppym@gentoo.org> +systemd-217-r3.ebuild:
More backports.
...
*systemd-217-r2 (05 Nov 2014)
05 Nov 2014; Mike Gilbert <floppym@gentoo.org> +systemd-217-r2.ebuild:
Backport several patches. Resolves bugs 527832, 527894. |
Latest new features of the latest systemd are not error free most of the time. |
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mv
Watchman
Joined: 20 Apr 2005
Posts: 6747
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| Posted: Thu Jan 08, 2015 4:18 pm Post subject: |
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| ulenrich wrote: | | Latest new features of the latest systemd are not error free most of the time. |
I would not care if some fancy new features do not work. But even if I use only stuff available since many systemd versions, I get in perhaps 5% of the boots a system which is practically completely disfunctional (all sockets are broken; I had opened another thread here about the problem, but nobody could help). Well, let's see whether it will get fixed... |
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amulet_linux
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Joined: 26 Apr 2014
Posts: 65
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| Posted: Mon Jan 12, 2015 7:47 pm Post subject: |
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| mv wrote: | | amulet_linux wrote: | | Do nvidia drivers delay udev? even the free drivers? What was wrong? How did you solve it? |
I forgot; perhaps I had used a wrong patch for my kernel (unfortunately, two of my cards are not supported by nvidia anymore. and the other is already treated legacy, too) or I had compiled the driver for the wrong kernel or did not mask the nouveau drivers. I think it was somehow in the course of an attempt whether the nouveau drivers can be used at least for the non-accelerated display - I try every half a year or so in the hope to get rid of the poor nvidia support, finally (unsurprisingly, the attempt was again a complete failure).
However, In any case, the mistake for the udev issue was on my side since I tried something which is "documented" not to work (I just forgot now which). |
So, it's like hard to use some Nvidia drivers, that's not good
Have a nice day
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mv
Watchman
Joined: 20 Apr 2005
Posts: 6747
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| Posted: Mon Jan 12, 2015 9:52 pm Post subject: |
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| amulet_linux wrote: | | So, it's like hard to use some Nvidia drivers |
Yes: Once nvidia drops support for the card, you can practically throw it away; the nouveau drivers are a mess: On one machine, the card will never go into any sleep state with nouveau drivers - no change many months after the bug report - (of course, there is no accelleration, either). On another machine the development over the last 6 years or so was:
1. Immediately crashing when booting the kernel
2. No crash, but no graphics,
3. No crash but random noise graphics
4. X starting with a grey screen and nothing else.
5. X runnng, but the machine is likely to halt in the moment when a window opens or something is written into it.
6. With linux 3.17, 3.18 (perhaps also earlier) the circile is closed: Immediately crashing when booting the kernel or hanging when loading the module (e.g. via udev).
On my third (now unused) machine the development was smiilar. I do not epect anymore that the nouveau drivers will ever be usable (BTW: "Officially" the nouveau state for the last two cards was "fully supported" already many years ago in step 1.)
Once xorg stops its security updates for xorg-server-1.15 and thus the old nvidia drivers become unusable, I will have no other possibility than to throw the card away.
This is probably the intention of nvidia. Since I do not want to be blackmailed, I will probably never buy nvidia again.
On the other hand, I heard the situation with API is perhaps even worse.
On my new machine, I have an intel card, and its in-kernel support is running out-of-the-box and so far never caused any problems; I hope that this will stay so in the future. I suppose that the card in the new machine for my parents will be intel, too... |
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Ant P.
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Joined: 18 Apr 2009
Posts: 6920
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| Posted: Mon Jan 12, 2015 11:53 pm Post subject: |
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| mv wrote: | | On one machine, the card will never go into any sleep state with nouveau drivers |
I have a similar problem with a radeon - sleep (ACPI S3) works fine, but the screen's stuck off when it wakes up. Thankfully that's the *only* major problem and the machine boots up fast enough that I don't care about suspend.
I'd rather recycle this card for my next PC than buy a new one though; all 3 brands are a complete trainwreck in terms of quality lately. |
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mv
Watchman
Joined: 20 Apr 2005
Posts: 6747
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| Posted: Tue Jan 13, 2015 12:19 am Post subject: |
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| Ant P. wrote: | | the machine boots up fast enough that I don't care about suspend |
I did not mean suspend - I would not even dare to expect that this works. I mean just simple dpms, i.e. switching off the monitor when you are away for a few minutes/hours. Really the most basic functionalities of the cards are not properly supported (although, compared to the other two cards, it can be used for basic work at least). However, this card is so new that it is still supported by nvidia, and so I use the nvidia drivers, of course, which do not have such severe issues, and moreover, which I can also use for e.g. google-earth in a reasonable speed (in contrast, with nouveau drivers, starting googlearth until getting the first frame(!) of the earthball finished needs several minutes on a dual core pentium: You can watch it grow slowly line by line). |
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Ant P.
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Joined: 18 Apr 2009
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| Posted: Tue Jan 13, 2015 4:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Wow, my mistake. I had no idea things could get *that* bad. |
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szatox
Advocate
Joined: 27 Aug 2013
Posts: 3137
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| Posted: Tue Jan 13, 2015 6:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Once nvidia drops support for the card, you can practically throw it away; the nouveau drivers are a mess: |
So what? Do they pull power plug when they drop support? Old drivers suddenly stop working? Does it display big, ugly "go buy a new GPU" message in the middle of your screen?
You seem to be looking for a problem to whine about. It's like you said you can just throw it away because you can't replace GPU, RAM, bus after they dropped support. A remainder here: you *never* could. |
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steveL
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Joined: 13 Sep 2006
Posts: 5153
Location: The Peanut Gallery
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| Posted: Tue Jan 13, 2015 7:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Once nvidia drops support for the card, you can practically throw it away; the nouveau drivers are a mess: |
| szatox wrote: | | So what? Do they pull power plug when they drop support? Old drivers suddenly stop working? Does it display big, ugly "go buy a new GPU" message in the middle of your screen? |
I think the issue is that you can't get upgraded drivers for your card, and the older ones won't work with newer kernels.
| Quote: | | You seem to be looking for a problem to whine about. |
That's a bit harsh, isn't it? Why personalise it, at all? In any event, it's not an accusation you can level against mv, from my experience of him. |
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mv
Watchman
Joined: 20 Apr 2005
Posts: 6747
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| Posted: Wed Jan 14, 2015 1:03 pm Post subject: |
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| szatox wrote: | | Old drivers suddenly stop working? |
Yes, on xorg-1.16, they suddenly stop working.
And using <xorg-1.16 in several months (depending when xorg upstream drops backporting security fixes for xorg-1.15 and older) on a machine with internet access can practically be considered a crime. (Not sure how it is by law for wilfull neglecting security - at least, you might be alleged criminal negligence if your machine is then used for something bad by some hackers).
The same holds for kernels (although in the moment, by accident, one can still patch the 173 series to work with 3.18; this is mere accident, and might also suddenly change).
And then it is not only security, but also many other features which the new kernels have - you simply cannot run a current system with the card, in particular, no secure system.
| Quote: | | you can't replace GPU, RAM |
This is completely unrelated, because nothing of this has to be done to keep the system secure. This is also not necessary to run current kernels or other current software. Specificially: xorg-1.16 won't stop working with your card if you don't replace GPU and RAM. |
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