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Did you make changes in make.conf? |
CFLAGS/CXXFLAGS |
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0% |
[ 0 ] |
USE |
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20% |
[ 3 ] |
CFLAGS/CXXFLAGS & USE |
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80% |
[ 12 ] |
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Total Votes : 15 |
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FastTurtle Guru
Joined: 03 Sep 2002 Posts: 475 Location: Flakey Shake & Bake Caliornia, USA
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Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2014 5:54 pm Post subject: Poll and suggested changes to Handbook and Build |
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A little history:
I began using Gentoo when we only had a choice between stage1 or stage2 tarballs. The differnce being that the stage2 toolchain had already been bootstrapped so I'm not suggesting we move back that far.
In looking into my crystal ball, we have 3 challenges facing Gentoo in the future.
- UEFI and Secure Boot
- Stage3 bloat
- Unneeded Steps in Handbook
A post I'd read the other day indicated that the minimal install media already includes the needed efi structures. If this is true, then EFI capable media needs to be released by the end of next year. My new Haswell based build boots more reliably in EFI mode then compatibility mode and this is only going to become more common. Personally, I expect that by 2020 (end of Win7 support), that all PC's sold will be UEFI and Bios compatibility mode will stink even more then it does now.
On the secure boot issue, it's coming and when it does, we're going to be locked out due to a lack of EFI bootable media. Debian/RH/Suse and others already offer EFI capable media that includes the boot shim so there's little need to duplicate what already works.
One of the big things I'm noticing is that the stage3 tarball is getting larger then actually needed to chroot and build the rest of the system. Is it quicker to use one? Sure and if I'm not changing the CHOST or adding USE flags, then there's little reason to cover it any longer. Combine this with the lack of server specific docs in the docs listing and I have to wonder how many folks actually use Gentoo for servers
What I consider the bare esentials is:
based on what Gentoo uses and derived from the LFS project. Shows you what's absolutely esential for a build. As part of the toolchain, I do include not only gcc/glibc but make, make.conf and the other automated tools used by gentoo. Is portage really one of those tools now that web-rsync seems to work reliably? If it is and web-rsycn doesn't work then it's a simple matter to grab the portage snapshot as I normally do in case something breaks.
Graham: You've been around as long if not longer then me so should remember how stripped down a stage2 tarball was. For some, it was a meager 50-70 megs.
If we've become mainly a desktop system, then drop the server profile and default to the desktop profile while having people check and see if they want gnome/kde or both or skip it for now as the default at least gets a working system with minimal problems. _________________ AsRock B550 Phantom Gaming 4
128GB 3200 Mhz memory
4x 4TB Sata - 2x 2TB Sata SSD - 4x 450GB SaS - 3x 900GB SaS - 72GB SaS for Boot
LSI 9211-8i in HBA mode for all of the SaS drives
Radeon 6800 (Non XT) for GPU
Last edited by FastTurtle on Tue Aug 19, 2014 5:22 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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John R. Graham Administrator
Joined: 08 Mar 2005 Posts: 10587 Location: Somewhere over Atlanta, Georgia
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Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2014 6:25 pm Post subject: |
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I use Gentoo for servers and I change the CHOST (occasionally), CFLAGS/CXXFLAGS (always) and USE flags (also always) on my installations.
Just out of curiosity, while not meaning to imply you're wrong, what's not needed for an installation that's included in the stage3 tarballs?
- John
Edit: Changed my response based on changes to the OP's poll. _________________ I can confirm that I have received between 0 and 499 National Security Letters.
Last edited by John R. Graham on Tue Aug 19, 2014 7:26 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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NeddySeagoon Administrator
Joined: 05 Jul 2003 Posts: 54098 Location: 56N 3W
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Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2014 6:35 pm Post subject: |
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FastTurtle,
The biggest challenge facing Gentoo isn't listed in your top three but I don't want to start a flamewar in your thread.
I rarely change CHOST any more but I adapt the USE flags to whatever I'm installing for. _________________ Regards,
NeddySeagoon
Computer users fall into two groups:-
those that do backups
those that have never had a hard drive fail. |
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The Doctor Moderator
Joined: 27 Jul 2010 Posts: 2678
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Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2014 6:41 pm Post subject: |
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Quote: | UEFI and Secure Boot | Just turn secure boot off.
At least for amd64 archs this should always be possible.
I will agree that the handbook should emphasize the EFI options and explain them in the early steps. For example, using no bootloader is very easy, but the steps are not included in the handbook.
I could be convinced to write some up...
To what exactly do you refer?
I suppose you could cut the size down a lot by defaulting to a busybox shell with mdev or static dev, but almost no one wants a system like that.
Quote: | Unneeded Steps in Handbook | I think most of the handbook is there for people who have no idea how to use a command line. I don't think there is anything unnecessary there for these types of people. Everyone else knows enough so they don't need to follow verbatim.
I would be couscous to hear what you think is extra though. _________________ First things first, but not necessarily in that order.
Apologies if I take a while to respond. I'm currently working on the dematerialization circuit for my blue box. |
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creaker l33t
Joined: 14 Jul 2012 Posts: 651
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Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2014 6:41 pm Post subject: Re: Poll and suggested changes to Handbook and Build |
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FastTurtle wrote: |
If we've become mainly a desktop system, then drop the server profile and default to the desktop profile while having people check and see if they want gnome/kde or both or skip it for now as the default at least gets a working system with minimal problems. |
I would drop Gnome3 profile instead. As well as Gnome support at all.
There are zillion distros that already fully implemented Gnome bloatness.
Building Gnome on Gentoo is just another one reimplementation of bloatware.
I may customize KDE in a way I want, so KDE is a field where I can realize the full Gentoo power. But for Gnome it's impossible. |
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asturm Developer
Joined: 05 Apr 2007 Posts: 8933
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Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2014 6:58 pm Post subject: Re: Poll and suggested changes to Handbook and Build |
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John R. Graham wrote: | I use Gentoo for servers and I change the CHOST and USE flags on all of my installations. |
+1
creaker wrote: | I would drop Gnome3 profile instead. As well as Gnome support at all.
There are zillion distros that already fully implemented Gnome bloatness. |
As long as * devs care about it, it can be part of Gentoo, and that's true for any package.
That said, it's all KDE on my systems. |
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depontius Advocate
Joined: 05 May 2004 Posts: 3509
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Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2014 7:19 pm Post subject: |
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John R. Graham wrote: | I use Gentoo for servers and I change the CHOST and USE flags on all of my installations.
Just out of curiosity, while not meaning to imply you're wrong, what's not needed for an installation that's included in the stage3 tarballs?
- John |
I always change my USE flags, desktop or server. I haven't had to change CHOST since I quit running my old K6-3. I ran that for a while after the i486 and i586 targetw were dropped. I got the x86 tarball and used the "Stage1 on Stage3" instructions. That machine has been retired for quite a few years, and the regular stages suffice, now.
Why do you change the CHOST? _________________ .sigs waste space and bandwidth |
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John R. Graham Administrator
Joined: 08 Mar 2005 Posts: 10587 Location: Somewhere over Atlanta, Georgia
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Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2014 8:03 pm Post subject: |
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I experiment with a lot of hardware. However, I've just realized that the OP probably meant CFLAGS and not CHOST. It would make more sense in the context of the rest of his post.
@FastTurtle, is that what you meant?
- John _________________ I can confirm that I have received between 0 and 499 National Security Letters. |
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krinn Watchman
Joined: 02 May 2003 Posts: 7470
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Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2014 10:08 pm Post subject: |
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I wonder too, the full handbook for x86 only mention CHOST 1 time
But as he already wants to kill server, he might wish kill embed device too. |
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John R. Graham Administrator
Joined: 08 Mar 2005 Posts: 10587 Location: Somewhere over Atlanta, Georgia
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Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2014 10:11 pm Post subject: |
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Yes. After all, the whole world is now 64-bit x86, right?
- John _________________ I can confirm that I have received between 0 and 499 National Security Letters. |
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mackal Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 04 Aug 2011 Posts: 88
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Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 4:33 pm Post subject: |
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If he meant CFLAGS, I need to change my answer, because I did change that.
It's also very silly to think Gnome 3 should be dropped because someone sees it as bloat. I mean, we have games-misc/doge, if anything, that is useless. |
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FastTurtle Guru
Joined: 03 Sep 2002 Posts: 475 Location: Flakey Shake & Bake Caliornia, USA
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Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 5:25 pm Post subject: |
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Since I can't change the poll questions - can one of the admins fix it and reset it?
Graham: Guess I started using Gentoo a bit before you did but I've dropped out/in off and on over the years.
I havent' always changed the CXFLAGS as the defaults tended to be good enough for what I used a system for but on this build, it was critical to ensure I eeked out every bit of performance possible from the code because I plan on underclocking the CPU to 1GHz (that's a multiplier of 10 in my firmware) so ever bit helps. Another setting I've always changed was -O2 becomes -Os on my builds and I've done that since beginning to use Gentoo for the simple reason the the size optimization turns off the more agressive flags used in O2 while giving a better improvement. Now if you read the GCC docs, you see that the Size optimization actually makes sense as a default because the binaries are slightly smaller, meaning more fit into cache (cpu/memory) - both are faster then even the read speed of an SSD (I'm using a Crucial M500-120G for Gentoo). Don't know what has changed there but it works and with the under clocking I'm doing, the smaller sizes are important simply to cut traffic on the system bus.
Most of my use flags go into package.use instead of make.conf since that's for global flags. Don't actually need to many even in package.use now since most packages have good defaults.
Last edited by FastTurtle on Tue Aug 19, 2014 5:54 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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John R. Graham Administrator
Joined: 08 Mar 2005 Posts: 10587 Location: Somewhere over Atlanta, Georgia
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Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 6:25 pm Post subject: |
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Poll corrected & reset. Folks who are interested are requested to re-vote.
- John _________________ I can confirm that I have received between 0 and 499 National Security Letters. |
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depontius Advocate
Joined: 05 May 2004 Posts: 3509
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Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 6:44 pm Post subject: |
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Now that I know it's CFLAGS and not CHOSTS, I've revoted and need to change my explanation.
USE needs no explanation.
As for CFLAGS, I once came upon a missive titled, "Gentoo is for Ricers!" which criticized Gentooligans for trying to squeeze insignificant improvements in performance using potentially dangerous CFLAGS settings. I'm not very prone to ricing myself, though I have done a little from time to time, because I generally use old underpowered hardware and sometimes need to push it a little. Since my computers constitute home infrastructure, I generally go with the safe, standard CFLAGS. It gives a better W.A.F.
That said, I'm planning on building a new Kaveri machine next month, and want to fiddle with HSA for simulation purposes. I suspect I'll be doing a bit of ricing on that machine, in addition to kernel patching. _________________ .sigs waste space and bandwidth |
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John R. Graham Administrator
Joined: 08 Mar 2005 Posts: 10587 Location: Somewhere over Atlanta, Georgia
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Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 1:51 pm Post subject: Re: Poll and suggested changes to Handbook and Build |
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FastTurtle wrote: | Graham: You've been around as long if not longer then me so should remember how stripped down a stage2 tarball was. For some, it was a meager 50-70 megs.
If we've become mainly a desktop system, then drop the server profile and default to the desktop profile while having people check and see if they want gnome/kde or both or skip it for now as the default at least gets a working system with minimal problems. | Yes, but saying the current Stage3 is larger than the old Stage2 isn't comparing apples to apples. A Stage3 isn't really designed to be the minimal package set needed to bootstrap a Gentoo system. Instead, with only a few exceptions, a Stage3 is a complete Gentoo system, albeit still relatively minimal. For most new users, this "...gets a working system with minimal problems."
What I think you're really saying is that you preferred the old Stage1 / Stage2 installation methods. I'm okay with that. Back in the sub-GHz days, I did too. But now? Not so much. (When I was experimenting with a ZFS root a few years ago, I had to make and use my own minimal install CD and stages with catalyst in order to get ZFS support on the installation media, but even though I had them, I ignored the Stage1 & Stage2 in favor of a modern Handbook install.)
To me, the installation process is one of the least important parts of Gentoo. My very first Gentoo install, which was completed on a 90 MHz Pentium I, is still running 10 years later without ever having been reinstalled. (I keep the /var/log/emerge.log file in perpetuity just for bragging rights.) Mind you, it's on its 4th (I think) motherboard and has had a myriad of other hardware upgrades, but I haven't had to revisit the Handbook for that machine once. In short, although the Handbook install process taught me a lot, it's the normal day-to-day operational benefits of Gentoo that've kept me here.
- John _________________ I can confirm that I have received between 0 and 499 National Security Letters. |
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