Gentoo Forums
Gentoo Forums
Gentoo Forums
Quick Search: in
Poll and suggested changes to Handbook and Build
View unanswered posts
View posts from last 24 hours

 
Reply to topic    Gentoo Forums Forum Index Gentoo Chat
View previous topic :: View next topic  

Did you make changes in make.conf?
CFLAGS/CXXFLAGS
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
USE
20%
 20%  [ 3 ]
CFLAGS/CXXFLAGS & USE
80%
 80%  [ 12 ]
Total Votes : 15

Author Message
FastTurtle
Guru
Guru


Joined: 03 Sep 2002
Posts: 475
Location: Flakey Shake & Bake Caliornia, USA

PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2014 5:54 pm    Post subject: Poll and suggested changes to Handbook and Build Reply with quote

A little history:

I began using Gentoo when we only had a choice between stage1 or stage2 tarballs. The differnce being that the stage2 toolchain had already been bootstrapped so I'm not suggesting we move back that far.

In looking into my crystal ball, we have 3 challenges facing Gentoo in the future.
  • UEFI and Secure Boot
  • Stage3 bloat
  • Unneeded Steps in Handbook

A post I'd read the other day indicated that the minimal install media already includes the needed efi structures. If this is true, then EFI capable media needs to be released by the end of next year. My new Haswell based build boots more reliably in EFI mode then compatibility mode and this is only going to become more common. Personally, I expect that by 2020 (end of Win7 support), that all PC's sold will be UEFI and Bios compatibility mode will stink even more then it does now.

On the secure boot issue, it's coming and when it does, we're going to be locked out due to a lack of EFI bootable media. Debian/RH/Suse and others already offer EFI capable media that includes the boot shim so there's little need to duplicate what already works.

One of the big things I'm noticing is that the stage3 tarball is getting larger then actually needed to chroot and build the rest of the system. Is it quicker to use one? Sure and if I'm not changing the CHOST or adding USE flags, then there's little reason to cover it any longer. Combine this with the lack of server specific docs in the docs listing and I have to wonder how many folks actually use Gentoo for servers :?:

What I consider the bare esentials is:
  • toolchain
  • eselect
  • nano

based on what Gentoo uses and derived from the LFS project. Shows you what's absolutely esential for a build. As part of the toolchain, I do include not only gcc/glibc but make, make.conf and the other automated tools used by gentoo. Is portage really one of those tools now that web-rsync seems to work reliably? If it is and web-rsycn doesn't work then it's a simple matter to grab the portage snapshot as I normally do in case something breaks.

Graham: You've been around as long if not longer then me so should remember how stripped down a stage2 tarball was. For some, it was a meager 50-70 megs.

If we've become mainly a desktop system, then drop the server profile and default to the desktop profile while having people check and see if they want gnome/kde or both or skip it for now as the default at least gets a working system with minimal problems.
_________________
AsRock B550 Phantom Gaming 4
128GB 3200 Mhz memory
4x 4TB Sata - 2x 2TB Sata SSD - 4x 450GB SaS - 3x 900GB SaS - 72GB SaS for Boot
LSI 9211-8i in HBA mode for all of the SaS drives
Radeon 6800 (Non XT) for GPU


Last edited by FastTurtle on Tue Aug 19, 2014 5:22 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
John R. Graham
Administrator
Administrator


Joined: 08 Mar 2005
Posts: 10587
Location: Somewhere over Atlanta, Georgia

PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2014 6:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I use Gentoo for servers and I change the CHOST (occasionally), CFLAGS/CXXFLAGS (always) and USE flags (also always) on my installations.

Just out of curiosity, while not meaning to imply you're wrong, what's not needed for an installation that's included in the stage3 tarballs?

- John

Edit: Changed my response based on changes to the OP's poll.
_________________
I can confirm that I have received between 0 and 499 National Security Letters.


Last edited by John R. Graham on Tue Aug 19, 2014 7:26 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
NeddySeagoon
Administrator
Administrator


Joined: 05 Jul 2003
Posts: 54098
Location: 56N 3W

PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2014 6:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FastTurtle,

The biggest challenge facing Gentoo isn't listed in your top three but I don't want to start a flamewar in your thread.

I rarely change CHOST any more but I adapt the USE flags to whatever I'm installing for.
_________________
Regards,

NeddySeagoon

Computer users fall into two groups:-
those that do backups
those that have never had a hard drive fail.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
The Doctor
Moderator
Moderator


Joined: 27 Jul 2010
Posts: 2678

PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2014 6:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
UEFI and Secure Boot
Just turn secure boot off. :P
At least for amd64 archs this should always be possible.
I will agree that the handbook should emphasize the EFI options and explain them in the early steps. For example, using no bootloader is very easy, but the steps are not included in the handbook.

I could be convinced to write some up...

Quote:
Stage3 bloat
To what exactly do you refer?

I suppose you could cut the size down a lot by defaulting to a busybox shell with mdev or static dev, but almost no one wants a system like that.

Quote:
Unneeded Steps in Handbook
I think most of the handbook is there for people who have no idea how to use a command line. I don't think there is anything unnecessary there for these types of people. Everyone else knows enough so they don't need to follow verbatim.

I would be couscous to hear what you think is extra though.
_________________
First things first, but not necessarily in that order.

Apologies if I take a while to respond. I'm currently working on the dematerialization circuit for my blue box.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
creaker
l33t
l33t


Joined: 14 Jul 2012
Posts: 651

PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2014 6:41 pm    Post subject: Re: Poll and suggested changes to Handbook and Build Reply with quote

FastTurtle wrote:

If we've become mainly a desktop system, then drop the server profile and default to the desktop profile while having people check and see if they want gnome/kde or both or skip it for now as the default at least gets a working system with minimal problems.


I would drop Gnome3 profile instead. As well as Gnome support at all.
There are zillion distros that already fully implemented Gnome bloatness.
Building Gnome on Gentoo is just another one reimplementation of bloatware.
I may customize KDE in a way I want, so KDE is a field where I can realize the full Gentoo power. But for Gnome it's impossible.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
asturm
Developer
Developer


Joined: 05 Apr 2007
Posts: 8933

PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2014 6:58 pm    Post subject: Re: Poll and suggested changes to Handbook and Build Reply with quote

John R. Graham wrote:
I use Gentoo for servers and I change the CHOST and USE flags on all of my installations.

+1

creaker wrote:
I would drop Gnome3 profile instead. As well as Gnome support at all.
There are zillion distros that already fully implemented Gnome bloatness.

As long as * devs care about it, it can be part of Gentoo, and that's true for any package.

That said, it's all KDE on my systems.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
depontius
Advocate
Advocate


Joined: 05 May 2004
Posts: 3509

PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2014 7:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John R. Graham wrote:
I use Gentoo for servers and I change the CHOST and USE flags on all of my installations.

Just out of curiosity, while not meaning to imply you're wrong, what's not needed for an installation that's included in the stage3 tarballs?

- John


I always change my USE flags, desktop or server. I haven't had to change CHOST since I quit running my old K6-3. I ran that for a while after the i486 and i586 targetw were dropped. I got the x86 tarball and used the "Stage1 on Stage3" instructions. That machine has been retired for quite a few years, and the regular stages suffice, now.

Why do you change the CHOST?
_________________
.sigs waste space and bandwidth
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
John R. Graham
Administrator
Administrator


Joined: 08 Mar 2005
Posts: 10587
Location: Somewhere over Atlanta, Georgia

PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2014 8:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I experiment with a lot of hardware. However, I've just realized that the OP probably meant CFLAGS and not CHOST. It would make more sense in the context of the rest of his post.

@FastTurtle, is that what you meant?

- John
_________________
I can confirm that I have received between 0 and 499 National Security Letters.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
krinn
Watchman
Watchman


Joined: 02 May 2003
Posts: 7470

PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2014 10:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wonder too, the full handbook for x86 only mention CHOST 1 time ;)
But as he already wants to kill server, he might wish kill embed device too.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
John R. Graham
Administrator
Administrator


Joined: 08 Mar 2005
Posts: 10587
Location: Somewhere over Atlanta, Georgia

PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2014 10:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes. After all, the whole world is now 64-bit x86, right? :wink:

- John
_________________
I can confirm that I have received between 0 and 499 National Security Letters.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
mackal
Tux's lil' helper
Tux's lil' helper


Joined: 04 Aug 2011
Posts: 88

PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 4:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If he meant CFLAGS, I need to change my answer, because I did change that.

It's also very silly to think Gnome 3 should be dropped because someone sees it as bloat. I mean, we have games-misc/doge, if anything, that is useless.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
FastTurtle
Guru
Guru


Joined: 03 Sep 2002
Posts: 475
Location: Flakey Shake & Bake Caliornia, USA

PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 5:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Since I can't change the poll questions - can one of the admins fix it and reset it?

Graham: Guess I started using Gentoo a bit before you did but I've dropped out/in off and on over the years.

I havent' always changed the CXFLAGS as the defaults tended to be good enough for what I used a system for but on this build, it was critical to ensure I eeked out every bit of performance possible from the code because I plan on underclocking the CPU to 1GHz (that's a multiplier of 10 in my firmware) so ever bit helps. Another setting I've always changed was -O2 becomes -Os on my builds and I've done that since beginning to use Gentoo for the simple reason the the size optimization turns off the more agressive flags used in O2 while giving a better improvement. Now if you read the GCC docs, you see that the Size optimization actually makes sense as a default because the binaries are slightly smaller, meaning more fit into cache (cpu/memory) - both are faster then even the read speed of an SSD (I'm using a Crucial M500-120G for Gentoo). Don't know what has changed there but it works and with the under clocking I'm doing, the smaller sizes are important simply to cut traffic on the system bus.

Most of my use flags go into package.use instead of make.conf since that's for global flags. Don't actually need to many even in package.use now since most packages have good defaults.


Last edited by FastTurtle on Tue Aug 19, 2014 5:54 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
John R. Graham
Administrator
Administrator


Joined: 08 Mar 2005
Posts: 10587
Location: Somewhere over Atlanta, Georgia

PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 6:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Poll corrected & reset. Folks who are interested are requested to re-vote.

- John
_________________
I can confirm that I have received between 0 and 499 National Security Letters.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
depontius
Advocate
Advocate


Joined: 05 May 2004
Posts: 3509

PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 6:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Now that I know it's CFLAGS and not CHOSTS, I've revoted and need to change my explanation.

USE needs no explanation.

As for CFLAGS, I once came upon a missive titled, "Gentoo is for Ricers!" which criticized Gentooligans for trying to squeeze insignificant improvements in performance using potentially dangerous CFLAGS settings. I'm not very prone to ricing myself, though I have done a little from time to time, because I generally use old underpowered hardware and sometimes need to push it a little. Since my computers constitute home infrastructure, I generally go with the safe, standard CFLAGS. It gives a better W.A.F.

That said, I'm planning on building a new Kaveri machine next month, and want to fiddle with HSA for simulation purposes. I suspect I'll be doing a bit of ricing on that machine, in addition to kernel patching.
_________________
.sigs waste space and bandwidth
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
John R. Graham
Administrator
Administrator


Joined: 08 Mar 2005
Posts: 10587
Location: Somewhere over Atlanta, Georgia

PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 1:51 pm    Post subject: Re: Poll and suggested changes to Handbook and Build Reply with quote

FastTurtle wrote:
Graham: You've been around as long if not longer then me so should remember how stripped down a stage2 tarball was. For some, it was a meager 50-70 megs.

If we've become mainly a desktop system, then drop the server profile and default to the desktop profile while having people check and see if they want gnome/kde or both or skip it for now as the default at least gets a working system with minimal problems.
Yes, but saying the current Stage3 is larger than the old Stage2 isn't comparing apples to apples. A Stage3 isn't really designed to be the minimal package set needed to bootstrap a Gentoo system. Instead, with only a few exceptions, a Stage3 is a complete Gentoo system, albeit still relatively minimal. For most new users, this "...gets a working system with minimal problems."

What I think you're really saying is that you preferred the old Stage1 / Stage2 installation methods. I'm okay with that. Back in the sub-GHz days, I did too. But now? Not so much. (When I was experimenting with a ZFS root a few years ago, I had to make and use my own minimal install CD and stages with catalyst in order to get ZFS support on the installation media, but even though I had them, I ignored the Stage1 & Stage2 in favor of a modern Handbook install.)

To me, the installation process is one of the least important parts of Gentoo. My very first Gentoo install, which was completed on a 90 MHz Pentium I, is still running 10 years later without ever having been reinstalled. (I keep the /var/log/emerge.log file in perpetuity just for bragging rights.) Mind you, it's on its 4th (I think) motherboard and has had a myriad of other hardware upgrades, but I haven't had to revisit the Handbook for that machine once. In short, although the Handbook install process taught me a lot, it's the normal day-to-day operational benefits of Gentoo that've kept me here.

- John
_________________
I can confirm that I have received between 0 and 499 National Security Letters.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Gentoo Forums Forum Index Gentoo Chat All times are GMT
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum