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ulenrich
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2014 8:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

User: Ant P.
Topic: systemd and user choice mission statement (a very rough draf
Post: post 7526190
Reason: Gentoo user forums declared a warzone
see also a new bug
https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=506420
because forum admins obviously part of the problem
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2014 11:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ulenrich wrote:
User: Ant P.
Topic: systemd and user choice mission statement (a very rough draf
Post: post 7526190
Reason: Gentoo user forums declared a warzone

I really don't get why you're blaming Ant P. for this. It seems obvious that the person trolling that thread isn't him, but the troll he refers to as performing a "gish gallop" which reading "they want you to become fatigued and frustrated reading walls of text, where concepts that could be expressed in half a dozen words are buried in entire paragraphs of circular logic, repetition and awkward literary contortions," sounds like a very accurate representation.

The 'goal is to attack you "between the lines" so that you can't easily stop them by pointing to any direct quote as wrongdoing,' also sounds very very accurate. I've been attacked on countless occasions in the midst of all the rambles, in small asides, and more broadly with little snide remarks which we're then told we can't discuss ("but I've shown how useful it is" so there; just don't talk about it again or I'll report you.)
Quote:
see also a new bug https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=506420 because forum admins obviously part of the problem

Well that bug is locked so I'm not sure why you're posting it to the public forums. Could you explain the substance of it, please?

If you've reported the moderators for keeping arguments confined to specific threads, then I think you need to consider what moderation is about. From where I'm sitting, it has never been about repressing all argument, and pretending it isn't happening. It's about keeping those people arguing in the same places so others can avoid it, while maintaining minimum decorum; and getting them to realise the argument is not very useful, and don't they have better, more constructive things to be doing?

Don't you? ;)

Honestly once you've been here several years, you'll realise we get phases of this sort of "controversy" in Gentoo. People get heated yadda yadda, and a year or two later everyone's forgotten about it (til the next thing to row about.)

Admittedly most of the real breakages in the last 5 years have come from that upstream, but I guess you're not really interested in hearing that. Feel free to take me up on the point in that thread, or another, if you prefer.
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aCOSwt
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2014 12:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Split from the "Report violations, duplicates, misplaced posts, etc." as it seems to trigger further discussion.
(Which does not necessarily mean that the report will not be addressed in some way)
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ulenrich
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2014 12:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Every one being trollish at a time, or is seen as acting as such despite having good intentions!
If we'd all resort to guerilla tactics using kind of DOS attacks against trollish behavior

... then this forum will be unusable.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2014 12:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

steveL wrote:
ulenrich wrote:
User: Ant P.
Topic: systemd and user choice mission statement (a very rough draf
Post: post 7526190
Reason: Gentoo user forums declared a warzone

I really don't get why you're blaming Ant P. for this.


I find it amazing that there are some that are supposed adults but act like
two year olds kicking and stomping their feet because "they aren't getting their way".

Seriously!!!

What next? Calling people nazis, communists or some other silliness.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2014 1:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Back to the processing of the report :

NACK! : My not so humble opinion is that the reason for reporting (Gentoo user forums declared a warzone) cannot honestly be justified when the reported forum member unequivocally states :
Ant P. wrote:
don't do that in a salvageable thread, it annoys others.


EDIT : Having since read somewhere else:
ulenrich wrote:
Don't you see how farcical it is to declare it a warzone?

I'd like to make absolutely clear that if you want your reports to be handled seriously, you should refrain from making them farcical in whatever way.

Having no access rights to the bug mentioned in the second part of the report, I won't comment.
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ulenrich
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2014 1:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe very humbling in results.
Fully:
Quote:
If you're feeling particularly black-hatty, doing the inverse of what you suggested — responding to their posts "directly" but not actually bothering to read them — is a highly effective counter-DoS using their own tactics. But don't do that in a salvageable thread, it annoys others.


If acceptable every one is a forum adminitrator in his own right.
Kind of southern US "stand your ground jurisdiction" in Gentoo forums.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2014 1:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've tried to stay out of this, and I'll let it go with this comment.

It's takes two or more to have a discussion, debate or even a shouting match.

One person can only provide merely a diatribe or monologue.

Later
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ulenrich
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2014 3:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

aCOSwt wrote:
Split from the "Report violations, duplicates, misplaced posts, etc." as it seems to trigger further discussion.
aCOSwt correctly named this split thread
Warzone & admins' responsibilities
Up to now nobody of the participants questioned the forum is
a warzone against systemd

Is this a valid assumption of the Gentoo user forums? Isn't it crazy?
What should forum admins do if it is (crazy of course) ?
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2014 3:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is not LP fanboy forums, this is not systemd forum. If someone says LP sucks bad there, it would be trolling, as you don't expect anyone saying LP sucks in a forum that is only made to show how LP is God.

So you can cry if someone is telling you systemd is a big piece of shit in a systemd forum. But this is gentoo forum, if someone doesn't like openrc, kde, vlc, medieaplayer or whatever you wish, you just cannot tell him he isn't allow to not love it.

So yes, someone loving systemd in Gentoo forum is a valid assumption
So yes, someone hating systemd in Gentoo forum is a valid assumption

Because it's Gentoo Forum not systemd lovers one !
If you want admin to enforce "love systemd", go post into systemd forum where such assumption should be tag as "troll".
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2014 8:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ulenrich wrote:
aCOSwt correctly named this split thread
Warzone & admins' responsibilities
Up to now nobody of the participants questioned the forum is
a warzone against systemd

And that's the kind of religious if-only-the-world-wasnt-trying-to-persecute-us nonsense that makes the discussion so useless.

krinn answered the point; I'm just pointing out the emotive mania associated with this kind of trolling position. Overuse of the "ban it" button just makes it even more ironic, but you'd have to have self-insight in order to be able to laugh at yourself, so no doubt this will go down a treat.
Quote:
Is this a valid assumption of the Gentoo user forums? Isn't it crazy?
What should forum admins do if it is (crazy of course) ?

It's not valid as above. You do appear a little crazy, yes, from where i'm sitting. I'm not sure it's the moderators' job to do anything at all about general user craziness, or they'd have quit years ago.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2014 11:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ulenrich wrote:
....


My only comment here is that the hypocrisy of this burns. You ulenrich are well known for bashing on anyone who disagrees with systemd for any reason. I even recall you derailing several support requests by stating something along the lines of "The systemd haters say X, but you should try Y" on threads that had absolutely nothing to do systemd. I really wish I could recall the threads properly. I hate posting this unsubstantiated. Just food for though.

Another point we all should take to heart is krinn's. Gentoo is not systemd nor should the forums attempt to suppress discussions of its faults or merits where appropriate. I can only hope this tread is an April Fools day thread...
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desultory
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2014 4:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Edit: Given the counsel of others. this will be handled privately, for the time being.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2014 9:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

krinn wrote:
This is not LP fanboy forums, this is not systemd forum. If someone says LP sucks bad there, it would be trolling, as you don't expect anyone saying LP sucks in a forum that is only made to show how LP is God.

So you can cry if someone is telling you systemd is a big piece of shit in a systemd forum. But this is gentoo forum, if someone doesn't like openrc, kde, vlc, medieaplayer or whatever you wish, you just cannot tell him he isn't allow to not love it.

So yes, someone loving systemd in Gentoo forum is a valid assumption
So yes, someone hating systemd in Gentoo forum is a valid assumption

Because it's Gentoo Forum not systemd lovers one !
If you want admin to enforce "love systemd", go post into systemd forum where such assumption should be tag as "troll".


Full ACK.


Regards, Gatsby
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2014 11:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gatsby wrote:
krinn wrote:
This is not LP fanboy forums, this is not systemd forum. If someone says LP sucks bad there, it would be trolling, as you don't expect anyone saying LP sucks in a forum that is only made to show how LP is God.

So you can cry if someone is telling you systemd is a big piece of shit in a systemd forum. But this is gentoo forum, if someone doesn't like openrc, kde, vlc, medieaplayer or whatever you wish, you just cannot tell him he isn't allow to not love it.

So yes, someone loving systemd in Gentoo forum is a valid assumption
So yes, someone hating systemd in Gentoo forum is a valid assumption

Because it's Gentoo Forum not systemd lovers one !
If you want admin to enforce "love systemd", go post into systemd forum where such assumption should be tag as "troll".


Full ACK.


Regards, Gatsby
Erm.. wait, what?

This is not LP haters forum, this is not anti-systemd forums. If someone say LP is a great guy, it would be trolling, as you don't expect anyone saying LP is a great guy in a forum that is only made to show how LP is the devil.

So you can cry if someone is telling you systemd is a great piece of software in an anti-systemd forum. But this is gentoo forum, if someone does like systemd, kde, vlc, medieaplayer or whatever you wish, you just cannot tell him he isn't allow to love it.

Don't you see? All you are saying is nothing.

Anon-E-moose wrote:
I find it amazing that there are some that are supposed adults but act like
two year olds kicking and stomping their feet because "they aren't getting their way".
+1 - for all sides.

*sigh*. I am a happy openrc user from the beginning. No systemd anywhere. But nope, I am neither fan nor hater. Am I trolling now, because I do not take sides?
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2014 12:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yamakuzure wrote:
Don't you see? All you are saying is nothing.


I think what he was trying to get across is that one can't control what others discuss or how they feel on these types of forums, at least that's how I took it.
Oh it's been tried time and time again, and it fails miserably every time it is tried.

The only ones who could do such a thing is the admins/mods, and they won't even attempt it for they know better.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2014 12:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@Yamakuzure
+1 full ack as a systemd user, who admires openrc, because of its simplicity, and who advises to use openrc to people, who want to learn about init systems. Call me openrc lover or systemd loverboy? I love my wife.

I reported Ant P.s post because I saw him advising people to act like Anon-E-moose did the last months: guerilla warfare using DOS spamming technique in the forum.

Knowing Ant P. to be one of the more rational guys I was alerted. He now admitted in the thread it was his kind of humour. Also an admin stated there: "Don't do that"

Case closed for me.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2014 12:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In case others missed it, that bug is now open ...

ulenrich wrote:
aCOSwt correctly named this split thread Warzone & admins' responsibilities

Named so probably as you provided "Reason: Gentoo user forums declared a warzone".

ulenrich wrote:
Up to now nobody of the participants questioned the forum is a warzone against systemd

That is because the first casualty of "war" (sic) is the truth ... something you perfectly illustrate in your bug. Your "declaration" is perhaps the most obvious as it is "they" (that nebulous "they") who seem to be providing the *war rhetoric* when the post you're reporting isn't even about systemd, and comes from one individual. By this you want to implicate others (specifically forum moderators) as being complicit and part of some "herd" ... a move which has a similar modus operandi to your false claims of an "anti-systemd religion".

In your drawing on the report on TomWij, and specifically the posts by forum moderators in that thread, you omit the context entirely, namely the thread in which the reported behaviour originated, and other systemd threads (referred to by Desultory) in which discussion had been stymied. You present it in a way that only shows what moderators have said in response to those discussions and so make it seem that their statements are unreasonable. You further point to NeddySeagoon as "unashamed to support the FUD" when what was said by Neddy is entirely substantiated by statements made by systemd developers. Your entire argument seems to hinge on guilt by association. Similarly, you'd tried in that report thread to associate the fact I had studied "philosophy of law" and use it to insinuate a "trial" was in progress (with its "judge", "accused", etc) all neatly wrapped in "serious[ly] academic[al] research", namedropping "Gödel" and, ironically, "logic". So, if there is a "war" here it is a war in which truth has been sacrificed, because you associations have no relation to the facts.

ulenrich wrote:
Is this a valid assumption of the Gentoo user forums? Isn't it crazy? What should forum admins do if it is (crazy of course) ?

No, its more a conflation of issues into which you can then project (as evidence) a "warzone". I am not personally responsible for what Ant P. (or others) write, only my own statements, lumping everyone together (as you do) into this "herd" and/or "anti-LP religion" is such a conflation.

best ... khay
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2014 1:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ulenrich wrote:
I reported Ant P.s post because I saw him advising people to act like Anon-E-moose did the last months: guerilla warfare using DOS spamming technique in the forum.


Now you're trying to bring my name into it as some type of rationalization BS.

I've never been a big fan of having people banned, but your continued atrocious behavior is making me feel that you need a timeout.

I'll tell you one more time...GROW UP, quit acting like a spoiled child.
If you're trying to provoke some type of fight with me, it won't work.

Note: I won't bother the admins with even reporting something like this, as I'm pretty sure they are keeping their eyes on how things are developing.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2014 1:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's quite obvious, even to disinterested onlookers that this whole SystemD issue ceased to be technical a long time ago and has since evolved into its current political incarnation. As such, the people pushing it have resorted to cheap political methods of attempting to discredit their "opposition" (whatever that means to them).

So, one of those cheap political tricks is to label the opposition as "haters", then pillory them for being irrational, emotional, & etc just because you question their chosen path. There are, of course, many other political tricks being utilized but it seems to me that's the big one in use lately, and it's being used to shut down any rational discussion about the issue.

As others have said, the issue isn't whether or not SystemD exists, but the fact that it has been and continues to be pushed so aggressively. Personally, I don't give two sh*ts whether it exists or not. But I do care that it's being forced on everyone.

That said, I know that it's not being forced on Gentoo. That's what I love about Gentoo. :D

P.S.: That bug by ulenrich is so ridiculous it isn't even funny. Was it meant as an April Fools joke? :P
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2014 2:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmmm... hmmm... please all :

desultory wrote:
Edit: Given the counsel of others. this will be handled privately, for the time being.


I personally read this as an attempt to intelligently bring things back to normal.
Which, I make no doubt, is nothing but what we all wish.

So could you all please refrain from refueling ?
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