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Butts McCokey
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 9:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

aidanjt wrote:
Butts McCracken wrote:
The likelyhood of Russia invading Ukraine is very very low.

What do you mean likelihood? They've already move military personnel to secure key civil positions in Crimea. The invasion already happened.
They were already there. They have their Red Sea Fleet there until 2046 iirc.
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flysideways
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 11:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Butts McCracken wrote:
aidanjt wrote:
Butts McCracken wrote:
The likelyhood of Russia invading Ukraine is very very low.

What do you mean likelihood? They've already move military personnel to secure key civil positions in Crimea. The invasion already happened.
They were already there. They have their Red Sea Fleet there until 2046 iirc.


Red as in communist? The other one's a bit further south.
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Old School
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 1:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Red.... Black..... It's all the same for cokey. He is blind in one eye, and color blind in the other.

He also has rather large feet.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 6:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The US conceded on Sunday that Moscow had “complete operational control of the Crimean peninsula” and announced that the secretary of state, John Kerry, will fly to Kiev in an attempt to halt a further Russian advance into Ukraine.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/02/us-russia-crimea-ukraine-putin
Finally we are putting some boots on the ground.

Man, the article just keeps getting better:
Quote:
The official added: “Our bottom line is they had to pull back from what they’ve already done, go back into their bases in Crimea. We’ll be watching very, very carefully of course and will be very, very concerned if we saw further escalation into eastern Ukraine.”

Stop! Or I will start to get concerned.
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notageek
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 6:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

:lol: :lol:
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 12:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ok ill stop with the StarWars:PhantomMenace parady :) (either noone noticed, noone cared or it was too close :) )

I can understand what Russia are doing to some extent. They have a right to protect their economic interests (US/UK/Fr do the same...). They already have military bases in the Ukraine so as long as they stay in their thats fine. The problem however... is they are not
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richk449
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 2:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naib wrote:
ok ill stop with the StarWars:PhantomMenace parady :) (either noone noticed, noone cared or it was too close :) )

I didn't notice, but wish I had - it was well done.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 2:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naib wrote:
ok ill stop with the StarWars:PhantomMenace parady :) (either noone noticed, noone cared or it was too close :) )
What Phantom Menace parody?
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 6:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oblabla is going to single-handedly sacrifice Kerry. That should make Putin happy.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 6:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is the last battle. Putin and Russia ends now.

And I like Putin. Unfortunately he's too old school. This effeminate Obama, Cameron and Hollande has delivered master stroke.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 6:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

notageek wrote:
This is the last battle. Putin and Russia ends now.

And I like Putin. Unfortunately he's too old school. This effeminate Obama, Cameron and Hollande has delivered master stroke.


What are you talking about?
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 7:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Koala Kid wrote:
notageek wrote:
This is the last battle. Putin and Russia ends now.

And I like Putin. Unfortunately he's too old school. This effeminate Obama, Cameron and Hollande has delivered master stroke.


What are you talking about?
He just had beef for lunch. British beef.
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notageek
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 7:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is the last soviet frontier. Next stop Moscow.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 8:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Old School wrote:
Red.... Black..... It's all the same for cokey. He is blind in one eye, and color blind in the other.

He also has rather large feet.


be nice, he just put toothpaste on his hand for a date with Rosie Palm and her five daughters.

You wouldn't be coherent either.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2014 1:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

richk449 wrote:
eponymous_dick wrote:
energyman76b wrote:
Question:

why should the EU do anything? Neither Russia nor Ukraine are EU members.

Lebensraum, baby, lebensraum.

Like the Balkans, Ukraine is at the crux of several competing migratory flows that have been in progress since before recorded history, from what amounts to:

a. the steppes peoples (now slavs)
b. the Mesopotamian/Persian peoples (and later, the Turkic)
c. the Nordic/Germanic peoples (Vikings, Danes, Swedes, Germans)
d. the Mediterranean peoples (Anatolians, Mycenaens, and later, the Greeks)

The migratory pressures between these various people have been at the core of all the European wars of recorded history, and those are only minor, recent fluctuations in the big picture of human events.

The rightful owners of the Crimea are probably Iran. Maybe we should just give it them and move everybody else out. :lol:

Man, every time I click on this post, it says something different. I kinda liked the earlier version that advocated a US-Russian joint genocide.

I don't necessarily disagree with your premise, which I think is something like "most of the major conflicts are really driven by conflicts among ancient racial groups competing for territory and power", but I what is the point? That there is no such thing as right or wrong when it comes to nations, only power? Don't the people currently living in Ukraine have the right to self-determination, no matter what the history of the land they and their ancestors live(d) on?

The point is, don't fight for your enemy.
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Prenj
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2014 1:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

notageek wrote:
This is the last soviet frontier. Next stop Moscow.

Don't think drones will work this time.
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Bones McCracker
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2014 2:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not in Ukraine (you can't rescue people by bombing them), but against the Russian Federation as a whole in a more full-scale conflict, a fokken shitlode o' drones would work (like a gazillion, provided you got all missions covered, like air-to-air, close air support, battlefield air interdiction, deep strike, strategic, etc.). You just need the manufacturing base to put them in the air and arm them; you can have children and little old ladies in tennis shoes fly them (my 79 year old mother will kick your ass in Age of Empires III).

And, we're one step beyond that already; I haven't seen anybody notice or comment on it, but a while back the U.S. quietly began re-training its Army and Marines for subterranean combat.

Actually, Obama just announced cutting our military off somewhere about at the knees, so unless he wants to put a stop to that, he's in no position to go flapping his lips about doing anything, particularly given that he's turned Afghanistan into a quagmire instead of putting an end to it (one way or the other) four years ago, and given that he's got us fighting about a half dozen little secret wars in various places.
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Last edited by Bones McCracker on Tue Mar 04, 2014 2:11 am; edited 1 time in total
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Naib
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2014 2:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

someone took the phase "Dem Ruskies have moles" a bit too far
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2014 2:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

eponymous_dick wrote:
A fokken shitlode of 'em would, like a gazillion (provided you got all missions covered, like air-to-air, close air support, battlefield air interdiction, deep strike, strategic, etc.).

And, we're one step beyond that already; I haven't seen anybody notice or comment on it, but a while back the U.S. quietly began re-training its Army and Marines for subterranean combat.

Not when they can bomb the place where all the sociopathic nerds are flying the drones from. :lol:
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richk449
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2014 3:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

eponymous_dick wrote:
richk449 wrote:
eponymous_dick wrote:
energyman76b wrote:
Question:
why should the EU do anything? Neither Russia nor Ukraine are EU members.

Like the Balkans, Ukraine is at the crux of several competing migratory flows that have been in progress since before recorded history, from what amounts to:
a. the steppes peoples (now slavs)
b. the Mesopotamian/Persian peoples (and later, the Turkic)
c. the Nordic/Germanic peoples (Vikings, Danes, Swedes, Germans)
d. the Mediterranean peoples (Anatolians, Mycenaens, and later, the Greeks)
The migratory pressures between these various people have been at the core of all the European wars of recorded history, and those are only minor, recent fluctuations in the big picture of human events.

I don't necessarily disagree with your premise, which I think is something like "most of the major conflicts are really driven by conflicts among ancient racial groups competing for territory and power", but I what is the point? That there is no such thing as right or wrong when it comes to nations, only power? Don't the people currently living in Ukraine have the right to self-determination, no matter what the history of the land they and their ancestors live(d) on?

The point is, don't fight for your enemy.

That is exactly the part I am not following. Why should I care if descendants of my racial group occupies more territory hundreds years from now? I want my children and their children to live in a better world, and that will come from supporting principles that make a better world, not from conquering more territory. So shouldn't I support the right of the Ukrainians to self-determination, no matter what their racial makeup is?
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Bones McCracker
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2014 5:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Did I say you should care? I did explain why various other parties, including the Europeans, should care. If they want their children and their children's chidren to live a decent life and survive, much less "live in a better world". There is a reason there aren't any Celts around in mainland Europe anymore. What do you think happened to them, they caught a plane to Aruba for a little R&R?

It's all well and good that one may wish to 'live and let live', but the pertinent question is what one's philosophy suggests when others don't. I have noticed that "live and let live" seems to be a common philosophy among the fat and happy, who are often bewildered that the deprived and unfortunate do not share it.

My point is that the Western perspective on this should take into account that the driving force resides at the very big-picture level: a long-standing and continuing migratory flow within Eurasia from East to West and North to South (the comparatively brief and ill-fated push-back by Mycenean/Greek and Scandinavian/German cultures not withstanding).

The big picture can be important. Why should an ant care whether the thing he just crawled on is actually a ship, as long as there are crumbs to be had? Well, if the ship is headed to the arctic, he or his children, or children's children, might end up caring, and wishing somebody had thought about it when it mattered.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2014 9:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You forget that Ukraine was created artificially as it is now including areas formerly belonging to other countries only after WWI-WWII
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Map_congress_of_vienna.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/41/Map_Europe_1923-en.svg/220px-Map_Europe_1923-en.svg.png
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:EasternBloc_BorderChange38-48.svg

A strip of Russian empire joined with a piece of Poland and a piece of Romania + the proper Ukrainian state. Crimea and the south belonged to the Russian empire (and had russian migratory influxes) since ~1850. Don't look so far "recent" event are the key :-)
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2014 9:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That is simply a manifestation in the short term of what I am talking about.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2014 10:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

erm67 wrote:
You forget that Ukraine was created artificially as it is now including areas formerly belonging to other countries only after WWI-WWII

Every country was created artificially, silly. What sites do you read anyway? Stormfront? :lol:
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2014 10:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

erm67 wrote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:EasternBloc_BorderChange38-48.svg

Also, 3rd map is wrong. Yugoslavia was NOT a satellite state to USSR. Too many people died in that schism to be able to claim that.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tito%E2%80%93Stalin_split
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-Aligned_Movement
http://imgur.com/XyzAJmy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cGueFwzCyIE&hd=1
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