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TomWij
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 Posted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 2:10 pm Post subject: |
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| steveL wrote: | | He ignored the point a second time: that makes it wilfully disingenuous in my book. *shrug* |
The frustration point was shared between depontius and me; your point appears different, which is why it is ignored.
| steveL wrote: | | The content was, but what he was actually doing in the context of the discussion, was merging the standard irritation of heavy dependencies, with a requirement for systemd which in turn imposes a whole slew of choices in disparate areas that have nothing to do with the desktop, nor its "experience". |
Dependencies are similar to requirements; now, in the context of this discussion which is stated in the subject at the top of this thread, they are also being forced, thus having to switch to it and/or it "becoming a default". The area that dependency and/or requirement is in has no relevance; whether it is as high as the init system or as low as some required libraries, it'll frustrate us.
| steveL wrote: | | It's a standard discussion tactic, no doubt it has some fancy name. |
The "resemblance" tactic sounds fancy. |
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TomWij
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| Posted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 2:28 pm Post subject: |
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| depontius wrote: | | For me software is quite political. I preceive systemd as getting shoved down my throat, and it's not just systemd, but along with it systemd-logind, systemd-syslog (or whatever it's called) and systemd-<whatever they choose to roll into systemd next>. I feel that my freedoms are being infringed, because choice is being taken away. Keep in mind the L.P. has said that he wants to push a systemd monoculture into Linux, though not in those words, and there is a large group with him in that wish. |
There is always going to be a large enough group of people interested in other software solutions; because systemd is not a solution for everyone, the same can be said about any other init system. See the Debian's length init system discussion for instance; there are multiple init systems around. Even outside of such big discussion, there are smaller init systems hiding in plain sight; like for instance The Epoch Init System, which is only half a year old or so and works fine on my Raspberry Pi. If it weren't for running GNOME, I would've even be running it on my laptop; because well, I like to tweak a little boot speed to allow for faster kernel testing / bisecting / development / ... or just for plain fun and learning.
For me software just has to work, be effective and efficient for me; maybe its design and politics set up for a twist in the future that break down that effectiveness and efficiency, but I'm certain there'll be a good alternative around. A year ago I switched from a broken GNOME 3.6 + OpenRC to a working XFCE + systemd, after a while I went to debug GNOME 3.10 (as I grew bored of XFCE) and they patched up g-s-d to work for this odd laptop so I'm now back again here; but I guess I might be on something totally different in a year or two, KDE perhaps? As I stated a page ago or so, I feel like KDE shoves some unnecessary libraries down my throat; but seeing they planned to split that up and do similar efforts, maybe an Epoch/KDE based system might be worth a try in the near future...
| depontius wrote: | | The other thing about my RescueCD question was that I wasn't sure how to actually chroot into a systemd system, then do systemd-type things. Even with OpenRC, once you chroot in, you can't necessarily start OpenRC services, because the whole predonditino needs/provides set isn't met. |
For systemd, you should be able to just start the /usr/lib/systemd/systemd executable; for OpenRC, you need to touch some runlevel file, it'll complain and tell you you can do that. |
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depontius
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| Posted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 4:11 pm Post subject: |
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Back to my point of frustration for a moment...
From Phoronix: "X.Org Server Systemd Integration Proposed" - http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTU4NDc
"They" are roping in all of these things, tying them as tightly as possible to systemd. There's also this attitude being show, in many places: "For those anti-systemd, anti-Lennard retards, which will start screaming like little girls... piss off! " http://phoronix.com/forums/showthread.php?94759-X-Org-Server-Systemd-Integration-Proposed I know that there is a certain level of incivility in Linux, and I've seen some of Linus' criticism. But at least that is technically founded, this and much of the systemd discussion isn't.
Systemd is relatively new. Apparently by intent it's become huge and wide-reaching, and getting more so. It may be modular from an internal perspective, but from outside it's one giant package, which also means that it's "patch granularity" is huge and getting bigger. That sheer size is going to affect the ability to get bug-fixes, including security fixes, out into the field. There will be situations where, "This part is ready to go, but that part isn't, so we have to hold it up until they're all in sync."
The "Unix Way" is an old and time-proven philosophy of software developement, and it could be applied to systemd, making it a much better piece of software. But it's not because some sort of World Domination push appears to be happening. "Unix Way" advocates are being told that they're old, outdated, "tards", etc. The "Unix Way", along with "defense in depth" protect us when individual pieces of software go bad. The alternative is perfect software, which doesn't exist. See "The history of iefbr14" for how even the most trivial code can still have problems.
I predict that this "battle plan" is going to run into the real world at some point, to paraphrase an old quote. There WILL be a security problem - nobody has escaped those, yet. If systemd has effectively taken over Linux when that does happen, it's going to give Linux a horrible black eye.
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steveL
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| Posted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 7:36 pm Post subject: |
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| TomWij wrote: | | steveL wrote: | | He ignored the point a second time: that makes it wilfully disingenuous in my book. *shrug* |
The frustration point was shared between depontius and me; your point appears different, which is why it is ignored. |
Nonsense: as depontius posted above, his concern is not about required dependencies, but the enforced monoculture, the same point I made to you twice. You are well aware of this background, since you've played the apologist for systemd on many a thread. Further you are plenty intelligent enough to acknowledge a point being made to you; that you refuse to consistently only indicates that you are fulfilling the apologist role again. Good luck with that and your frankly baffling "logic".
In any event, I won't respond any further on this sub-topic, as I consider it pointless. |
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TomWij
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| Posted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 9:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Of course that is what his concern is, because those are similar; it is pointless to claim they are not because that redefines similar to an extent that is different from the original message, as you base yourself on assumptions. |
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ulenrich
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| Posted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 10:15 pm Post subject: |
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| steveL wrote: | | Nonsense: as depontius posted above, his concern is not about required dependencies, but the enforced monoculture, |
The important nonsense here : depontius obviously uses systemd despite his skills and knowledge.
| Quote: | | indicates that you are fulfilling the apologist role again. |
As ever this whole thread is an apology for doing nothing but telling stories "once again" as Anon likely says. I wonder he gets the meaning "once" ...
The Debian bug about their discussion
http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=727708
brings minor attention towards openrc because of allegedly missing documentation about it. Also there is an informal prelection | Quote: | > The default init system for Linux architectures in jessie should be
> 1. systemd
> 2. upstart
> 3. openrc
> 4. sysvinit (no change) |
Results from Debian participants are 1234 , 2134, 4321
But never openrc at first place! |
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miket
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| Posted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 6:57 am Post subject: |
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| depontius wrote: | | For me software is quite political. I preceive systemd as getting shoved down my throat, and it's not just systemd, but along with it systemd-logind, systemd-syslog (or whatever it's called) and systemd-<whatever they choose to roll into systemd next>. I feel that my freedoms are being infringed, because choice is being taken away. |
Now this is a curious thing. LWN has a story on the front page telling us that LP wore a T-shirt to his linux.conf.au talk with the slogan "Open Source Tea Party". Wow, is that ever loaded! Let me step around the strong views that people might have about current politics in the U.S. to consider generic implications surrounding "tea party".
Webster's defines tea party as "an afternoon social gathering at which tea is served". We can see what else it is: the people attending are expected to be decorous and well behaved; it's all nice and hoity-toity. And rigid. If the host is great and powerful, you surely don't want to offend him.
It was just in reaction against the overbearing power of the king that American colonists in multiple cities held political actions aimed at protesting this kind of control. The colonists were not trying to replace one kind of tea with another, nor were most of them taken by radical ideas of subverting the king's rule. They only wanted to be treated fairly and not be run over.
Does the Poettering Tea Party align with either of these? It strikes me he was trying to evoke the radicalism we associate with the Boston Tea Party, which was certainly more destructive than the Philadelphia one. The trouble is that it's more about his will than of the free choice that people might make. He would come as a conqueror: accept systemd, and obey. I think, however, there's a strong case for aligning him with the original sense of "tea party": follow the convention, be polite, and remember who's in charge.
In any event, here are my politics: I don't want him as king. |
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ulenrich
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Anon-E-moose
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| Posted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 11:20 am Post subject: |
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| depontius wrote: | | There WILL be a security problem - nobody has escaped those, yet. |
I expect to see many MS style exploits, that goes along with a monoculture and not using
established and workable programming practices.
| Quote: | | If systemd has effectively taken over Linux when that does happen, it's going to give Linux a horrible black eye. |
I'm not sure if it will give all of linux a black eye or simply RH/LP.
I still think there is a likelihood of the project being abandoned, given LP's and Kay's
past history with complex pieces of software.
For me, I'll watch it from the sidelines for several years as it ripens and matures or not.
I'll keep using what works for me, and let the MS style groupies go on with their cheerleading.
If gentoo succumbs to the systemd crowd and choice truly disappears, then I'll simply
go back to rolling my own, or see if there isn't some other source distro that has sprouted
to take it's place.
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Shamus397
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| Posted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 6:21 pm Post subject: |
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Building systemd dependency into X has to be most retarded thing I've ever heard of, aside from all the rest of the stupid things that are being sucked into systemd. I suppose it won't be long before CUPS is assimilated? 
@Anon-E-moose: There's always Funtoo; they've stated that they're not going to drink the systemd Kool-aide. |
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Anon-E-moose
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| Posted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 7:17 pm Post subject: |
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I have heard that the person that started funtoo, was the originator of gentoo.
I have also heard that most of their ebuilds are basically taken from gentoo.
Which means that they would have to make their openrc & sysvinit ebuilds, if gentoo deep sixes them.
Not that it would be difficult.
I've taken old ebuilds and modified them for my uses for certain things and put them in my local portage.
I could probably continue to do that, as I do like the ability to completely ( or almost completely ) remove all parts of an installed package.
But in any case, I won't be held hostage by gentoo if they should go completely systemd. I would just say goodbye.
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miket
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| Posted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 8:26 pm Post subject: |
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| ulenrich wrote: | | miket wrote: | , nor were most of them taken by radical ideas of subverting the king's rule. They only wanted to be treated fairly and not be run over.
Does the Poettering Tea Party align with either of these? |
While as a german he might watch The Colbert Report and perhaps is informed about the Tea Party "run over" North Carolina, he surely just responded to Debians discussion (calling him such dumb) and wanted to provoke. |
Really? LP isn't provocative enough?
The Tea Party movement is enormously controversial. Beyond this point, he shows an amazing degree of ignorance about what is happening in the state where he works. The Tea Party does indeed pursue its program with vigor, but anyone with the slightest degree of perspicuity would know that the whole thrust of the movement is to reject overarching schemes imposed from on high. Furthermore, many who identify with the Tea Party are also embrace libertarianism, which itself is wildly antithetical to that kind of control.
Much of the opposition to the Tea Party comes from people who are dismayed by the Tea Party program of rolling back many of the hard-won gains they hold dear or the reforms they would want to enact. Other people agree with many of the Tea Party's goals but dislike the political methods.
The Tea Party has become such a lightning rod that even historic symbols adopted by the Tea Party have been seen as suspicious political symbols to be removed from public display.
In any event people don't have to be Tea Partiers to be mighty mistrustful of systemd. It is very large, it presents a large attack surface, and given the rate that it continues to assimilate features, can hardly be called stable.
LP's ignorance of the issue betrays something even more troubling: he seems to be more interested in pushing his own agenda and doing things his own way than to attending to the concerns of the community or even pretending to listen.
It all could have worked with a modest approach. The PID 1 process does not have to be so bloated to do all the things he would like. OpenRC is much more sane in its thinking.
I guess that's not grandiose enough. For the people who would like all their changes in a big lump and who trust that it will not some day fall over or have him lose interest, let them have systemd and be happy.
But I firmly reject attempts to force it on me. The program from RH and LP, et al. is very aggressive and poised for conquest, hence my alarm. |
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666threesixes666
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| Posted: Fri Feb 07, 2014 5:00 pm Post subject: |
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lp doing his own thing, when you have that many haters you gotta go on doing you instead of letting others defeat you.
enforced monoculture no one is stopping you from using busybox init system. you want to see me get fanatical about busybox?!?!? i mean seriously i look at systemd as a big busybox for desktops and laptops that is very quick.
yes moose, drobbins who created portage forked gentoo and started the funtoo project. he went on to work for microsoft after doing gentoo for some time, helping them understand linux / gnu systems for a while and let gentoo slide while it happened. he came back demanding absolute control again and the council refused it, so he forked and started another project in absolute control.
drobbins is a good story, 1 man who wrapped an absurd amount of elements together to create a tightly knit highly efficient system that works good. systemd strawman argument, if you dont like that kind of behavior, leave gentoo....
strawman argument, drobbins should of conformed to established paradigms and not made new software or published online... |
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Navar
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| Posted: Fri Feb 07, 2014 10:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Dominique_71 wrote: | | On systemd-devel, the discussion start here. |
Wow, thanks for that Dominique.  I say that very disappointingly tongue-in-cheek. I always wondered in the back of my mind just how much Greg was on our side rather than the Sievers, LP, et. al camp with udev++.
I can hear the voices of fellow BSD users in mid-90s laughing at me again at going with Linux. Of course the ensuing parody of BSD is tossed in for good measure in a link below.
Hey, thanks for the 'best of luck' salutation, Greg.
Later on we have this gem, which a RH employee went out of their way to share, ala Mr. Smith Matrix style http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2008-January/msg00861.html
And if some of you want to get further irritated, you can read along with the "me too's" in that thread. You should recognize some names and their respective design decisions.
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steveL
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| Posted: Fri Feb 07, 2014 10:25 pm Post subject: |
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| 666threesixes666 wrote: | | lp doing his own thing, when you have that many haters you gotta go on doing you instead of letting others defeat you. |
*sigh* he doesn't have haters: just people who weren't interested in the crappy approach the first time, nor the second, nor the third, who are getting mighty tired of explaining why, and in fact don't have to as more and more complexifity comes out of the turdmachine.
Roll up, roll up, get your tickets and watch the great car-crash happen, live on a Linux box near you!
| Quote: | | enforced monoculture no one is stopping you from using busybox init system. you want to see me get fanatical about busybox?!?!? i mean seriously i look at systemd as a big busybox for desktops and laptops that is very quick. |
Yeah and no-one's stopping you using systemd: but for some reason, everything they were meant to make simple has instead turned complex, and if you don't like it, bugger your portability. We said we'd make it easier to write daemons? We lied.
Funny how we always hear the "don't like it? use something else!" but btw we've just forced all the projects you worked with equitably for so long to do it our way, with a combination of browbeating, propaganda and good old-fashioned hissy-fits, backed by a nice corporate agenda, and promises of "less work". So by all means use something else, but Linux is our playground because we said so.
So, find another OS, unless you promise to stay in the embedded ghetto, til we come for you spouting about how good systemd is for embedded, just like consolekit was for multi-seat. We didn't get XML into the kernel, but we got a broadcast message-queue not half as good as the vanilla one would have been. "C'mon man, we give you this stuff for free." OK, the users wrote it in the first place, you do all the QA and testing, as well as most of our bug-fixing for free, so we can sell you out as DRM income-streams to our corporate clients, but look: "shiny, shiny."
| Quote: | | yes moose, drobbins who created portage forked gentoo and started the funtoo project. he went on to work for microsoft after doing gentoo for some time, helping them understand linux / gnu systems for a while and let gentoo slide while it happened. he came back demanding absolute control again and the council refused it, so he forked and started another project in absolute control. |
Lol. No he came back and got thrown into the viper-pit that was the dev ML, and asked why ciaranm was allowed to behave like such an asshole when he wasn't even a dev, and had in fact been thrown out for exactly that behaviour.
This got deflected into a row about him asserting "dev status" on a mailing-list open to all, and then questioning his fitness, to which he naturally responded "er I did found Gentoo" and ofc that started the whole "you're trying to throw your weight around" accusations.
See how that works? Change the subject to another contentious one, put someone on the defensive and then blame them for the whole sub-argument (how dare they bring it to that level! shock! horror!) which was never even their point.
Hmm feels familiar..
| Quote: | | drobbins is a good story, 1 man who wrapped an absurd amount of elements together to create a tightly knit highly efficient system that works good. systemd strawman argument, if you dont like that kind of behavior, leave gentoo.... |
Jeezus you have a warped view of what drobbins did: the great insight he had was to not interfere with what worked, but work with it instead. Expose the knobs to the user, and trust them to know what to do with them, or pick up the pieces and tell you what went wrong. The exact opposite of systemd-rewrite-the-kitchen-sink and make-an-idiotbox even idiots won't want to use in a few years. |
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Anon-E-moose
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| Posted: Fri Feb 07, 2014 11:03 pm Post subject: |
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| 666threesixes666 wrote: | | lp doing his own thing, when you have that many haters you gotta go on doing you instead of letting others |
I'm really tired of trolls calling those who don't like some software project haters.
There are good reasons that many don't like systemd, whether by LP or someone else. Ok?
Edit to add:
WTF does this
| Quote: | | yes moose, drobbins who created portage forked gentoo and started the funtoo project. he went on to work for microsoft after doing gentoo for some time, helping them understand linux / gnu systems for a while and let gentoo slide while it happened. he came back demanding absolute control again and the council refused it, so he forked and started another project in absolute control |
have to do with anything. What I said was in relation to this
| Quote: | | @Anon-E-moose: There's always Funtoo; they've stated that they're not going to drink the systemd Kool-aide. |
Not sure what you're on about other than trolling, for which you have a long history.
Quite frankly you're about a dozen keystrokes away from being put on my ignore list.
Not that it will bother you if all you're here for is to troll. But just the same....
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NeddySeagoon
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| Posted: Sat Feb 08, 2014 12:00 am Post subject: |
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Team,
The topic here is When (and if) Gentoo will switch to systemd? Lets not turn this thread into another systemd thread that has to be locked because its gone off the rails.
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Anon-E-moose
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| Posted: Sat Feb 08, 2014 12:05 am Post subject: |
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Sorry for my part
It would be nice to have a map of what the developers are planning to do ala systemd.
Will it remain an option or be mandatory, etc.
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rudregues
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| Posted: Sat Feb 08, 2014 1:13 am Post subject: |
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| Anon-E-moose wrote: |
It would be nice to have a map of what the developers are planning to do ala systemd.
Will it remain an option or be mandatory, etc. |
What's your point? From what I know systemd is optional until now.
Gentoo devs won't push this into our throats. No reason for this.
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666threesixes666
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| Posted: Sat Feb 08, 2014 1:35 am Post subject: |
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moose im not out to be hostile or troll, as i said in like post 3ish of this thread, systemd is kinda junky, has alot of bugs to work out, i highly doubt it will be default init any time soon as in the next 2 years. i like choice, id be very happy to see busybox init come on down to the point where it easily could set along side of systemd and openrc, id really like to have choice of upstart and traditional sysv init also. im not a fan of fedora, or redhat, cents almost quality enough for me to like it for servers. to me systemds just another init system. i agree that hijacking udev for their own ends was a bad move on their part. they should of forked udev instead of taint known good/spawn eudev.
NeddySeagoon any plans on an unmoderated init brawl thread that might diffuse all the hostility circling around this subject?
systemd is "mandatory" for gnome3, i can run gnome3 with out systemd as primary system init so long as i do not try loading it with gdm3. i haven't tried gnome3 with udev, i still have systemd lurking as udev in the background. i suppose i dont like the udev replacement noise contained within systemd, conflicting with standard udev. and since ive said systemd is kinda junky, now ill say gnome3 is kinda junky... i jumped ship to xfce4, and use openrc regularly.... regardless of setting up systemd to fix systemd info into wiki pages to let people decide for themselves. |
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Navar
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| Posted: Sat Feb 08, 2014 2:45 am Post subject: |
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| NeddySeagoon wrote: | | Red Hat is after the desktop market. |
I disagree. They and others want the perception of a desktop model to die on the vine. This instead should be eerily very familiar to you, the big business subscription model with thin clients, just on a much grandiose scale than mainframe eras. Instead of big iron it's large distributed data centers. It's nemesis and antithesis is localized personal computing power and data control. We like to propagandize newer generations about the evils of power consumption and global warming theme in the latter in efforts to help sell new consumer shinys (even in a very down economy) and throw away polute with the old. Data centers are extemely low on 24/7 power consumption of course...
Red Hat is hip deep into and after the *aaS cloud market share (back end) and leveraging the mobile market (front end) to that benefit. When you can ultimately force both sides towards those goals via converting all into the SystemD/Gnome3+ fold. They could care less about the perceived aged concept of a desktop. It's not new. It's not innovative. But it's where the big monetary growth story is. Google avoided it from the start with Android. Just as various financial analysts that watch and talk to these companies espouse frequently that the era of desktop computing is dead. They're not the first entry on these goals, obviously, with the big 5 (M$, Apple, Goog, Oracle, Amazon), with IBM, Ubuntu and SUSE playing their parts. None of them hold all the cards, yet.
Speaking of accounting, take note of who pays by company on the Gnome foundation advisory board (then see income reports). Also note who the original founders were of f.d.o., and who remains. Money trail is what it is and what's happened is hardly coincidence, FUD, or speculation.
The fact that they keep presenting the new paradigm as the new desktop while its clear orientation is fixated at mobile touch displays is the great misnomer. Here's the new shiny pill, we promise you won't choke on it. Let us manage your (meta)data and you. The really odd parts to ignore in broad overview are watching an overly outstretched arm in a professional photograph in their annual report across the keyboard and touchpad straining to touch that screen...
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Anon-E-moose
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| Posted: Sat Feb 08, 2014 2:48 am Post subject: |
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| rudregues wrote: | | Anon-E-moose wrote: |
It would be nice to have a map of what the developers are planning to do ala systemd.
Will it remain an option or be mandatory, etc. |
What's your point? From what I know systemd is optional until now.
Gentoo devs won't push this into our throats. No reason for this. |
Yes, optional until now.
But will it remain that way into the future? That's what I want to know.
Gentoo devs have pushed other things, at least some of them.
That's why I asked about it the way I did.
I do not assume that since they haven't pushed it down our throats so far, that they won't in the future.
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666threesixes666
Veteran
Joined: 31 May 2011
Posts: 1248
Location: 42.68n 85.41w
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| Posted: Sat Feb 08, 2014 3:19 am Post subject: |
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i setup lilo where i can select between init systems... i documented the process in the lilo wiki, booting into systemd on my laptop produces no nm-applet, i cant unmount usb thumb drive, i cant mount usb thumb drive. yeah buggy, junky, quick... slim still works, xfce4 still works. its just not settled down and been debugged enough. in the future it may become a better init system than it is at current. i still dont see it becoming default.
if you were to install systemd and muck around in it your feverish distaste will be confirmed and you'll stop worrying about it.
if they stop openrc support, im jumping ship and installing openwrt on the laptop.... id probably learn to write ebuilds, fork and fragment community. its no big secret to me that its junk. ive killed about 16 installs for it when it was i guess alpha.
http://iheartinspiration.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/over-thinking.jpg
right stop openrc support? thats what the freaking out is about? i don see openrc support being dropped so long as it functions and serves its purpose. |
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rudregues
Apprentice
Joined: 29 Jan 2013
Posts: 231
Location: Brazil
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| Posted: Sat Feb 08, 2014 3:21 am Post subject: |
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Anon-E-moose, I didn't know things were pushed in the past, since I'm very new to Gentoo and always seen "Gentoo is about choice" as a guideline followed by everyone here.
In addition, I see many people here against put systemd as a system dependency. If devs simply start to push systemd there will be many people sad here and this is why I think they won't yet.
Systemd will be mandatory in Gentoo just when some irreplaceable part of the system starts to hard depending on it. "But we can fork this!" Yes we can, but it will be more manpower to maintain the forked code...
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Navar
Guru
Joined: 20 Aug 2012
Posts: 353
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| Posted: Sat Feb 08, 2014 3:50 am Post subject: |
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Focusing directly on the topic. In answer to others, I would hope Systemd is not made the default (unless some criterion really improve/change). I have absolutely zero issues with any software that proves its model is an improvement. That's different from saying there will be no other options and hopefully that will never occur. The vast majority of mainstream distros have already been forced converts and the end user is left generally without a choice (and probably indifferent regardless). I've never used Debian, but the speed at which they seemed to have rolled over is concerning given their past history claims. The impression I'm directly left with (and may test soon) is that it's less of a headache to go OpenRC (system install)->Systemd later, than Systemd (system install)->something else once it's on. Most users will gravitate towards whatever default view the developers present as the ideal way to go (to the user). And once that occurs, unless they have serious unresolved difficulties, they will staunchly defend it. This is just human nature. People do not want things they are used to for their needs turned upside down without a very strong reasoning. Even then, they will balk at it.
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@Moderators: I'm left viewing the OP's opinion as, I don't care about your default for ease (OpenRC), I want mine (systemd) instead. At which point any healthy discussion debating the merits of the matter is pointless and only a majority(/popularity) vote tends to rule and it won't be the users taking that action. There's really only two things that could eventually happen here given that post, it's ignored or it evolves back into the debate. If you see arguments back and forth on opinions pro/con as being no use to the discussion, then what, ultimately, is the middleground point?
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I would imagine we'll only know the answer to this via a surprise event versus any devs posting their thoughts here and if that day comes, like new taxes, I doubt things will revert back.
If any devs are nice enough to share their opinions on the matter, let's please let them keep them. If they're left feeling it's a hostile environment to communicate their viewpoint here, they simply won't contribute.
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