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eccerr0r
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PostPosted: Mon May 27, 2013 2:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

At least apt (Debian/Ubuntu/...) asks just a few questions for the config file updates and runs with the new updates when it's done. Gentoo does take longer if the config file changes drastically - it's the price to pay to stay latest without reinstall.

Should the config file updates be as simple as...say...Windows, that doesn't even ask any questions and virtually automated?
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PostPosted: Mon May 27, 2013 4:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

eccerr0r wrote:
Should the config file updates be as simple as...say...Windows, that doesn't even ask any questions and virtually automated?


Tools such as dispatch-conf automate the updating of config files while also allowing to keep your configuration. These are the options I have in my /etc/dispatch-conf file:

Code:
# Automerge files comprising only CVS interpolations (e.g. Header or Id)
replace-cvs=yes

# Automerge files comprising only whitespace and/or comments
replace-wscomments=yes

# Automerge files that the user hasn't modified
replace-unmodified=yes

# Ignore a version that is identical to the previously merged version,
ignore-previously-merged=yes


With these options, updating config files is almost automated except when I have modified the config files or when there are important changes that need to be considered. It makes sense for me.

Cheers!
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PostPosted: Mon May 27, 2013 6:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ant P. wrote:
The funny thing is, Debian handles config files in almost exactly the same way (but worse, since it requires you to babysit the entire update process instead of doing it afterwards). I've never seen articles ranting about that...

Ant P. ... indeed, and the author seems to recommend FreeBSD in which updating /etc is far more convoluted:
    * make a backup of /etc
    * use cvsup (or what-have-you) to update the source tree
    * [make installworld and/or make buildworld]
    * run 'mergemaster -r -i -t /var/tmp/root <other_opts>'
    * merge changes in /etc
    * reboot
So, similar to the "ALL of your configuration files" need updating that so erks the author.

best ... khay
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eccerr0r
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PostPosted: Mon May 27, 2013 7:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Despite dispatch-conf features, it's not exactly what I meant... Due to major version upgrades, configuration files can change massively for Gentoo. The minor changes aren't a big deal but the ones the user have changed significantly can be a problem (and auto-keep changed may or may not work.) Because Ubuntu and especially MS are "LTS" type and you'll never have to make large config file changes...

Up until you have to reinstall the OS to upgrade to new features...
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PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2013 1:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have four Gentoo computers with very different configurations, and I update them once each month, using these commands, more or less:

Code:
1.  emerge --sync
2.  emerge -puvDN world
3.  emerge -quDN world
4.  Read and follow the portage output.
5.  dispatch-conf
6.  revdep-rebuild
7.  python-updater


I run 1 on only one computer, since the others mount /usr/portage over N.F.S. After 2, I make sure that everything looks as I want before running 3. I put the output into a text file and read all of it, following instructions where necessary, and deleting the output one package at a time after I am done with it. Then comes 5, which is quick most of the time, then 6 and sometimes 7.

On my fastest computer 2 takes between half an hour and two hours (if it updates both LibreOffice and Chromium). On my slowest, it can take up to about six hours. That is just waiting, of course, and the computers are usable otherwise. Reading and following the portage output takes between 10 minutes and half an hour (it takes the longest on my first computer, but the others take less time because I know what to expect).

Anyway, my estimate for one computer is 10 to 30 minutes of actual work, and 30 to 500 minutes of time waiting (and using the computer for other things while waiting).

Am I missing anything important, or maybe doing too much at some point?
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khayyam
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PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2013 2:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

keet wrote:
I put the output into a text file and read all of it, following instructions where necessary, and deleting the output one package at a time after I am done with it.

keet ... if you mean redirect the output of the emerge then you should really use PORTAGE_ELOG_* as portage can log all of the required information without you having to do anything. See: /usr/share/portage/config/make.conf.example. This can be logged to files(s) or sent via email, so for example:

/etc/portage/make.conf
Code:
PORTAGE_ELOG_CLASSES="warn error info log qa"
PORTAGE_ELOG_SYSTEM="mail"
PORTAGE_ELOG_MAILFROM="portage@localhost"

keet wrote:
Am I missing anything important, or maybe doing too much at some point?

Rather than use 'emerge -quDN world' (specifically, newuse) you might use 'emerge -quD --changed-use @world' this way you won't be re-emerging packages with use changes that are not enabled.

best ... khay
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 06, 2013 7:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

khayyam wrote:
keet wrote:
I put the output into a text file and read all of it, following instructions where necessary, and deleting the output one package at a time after I am done with it.

keet ... if you mean redirect the output of the emerge then you should really use PORTAGE_ELOG_* as portage can log all of the required information without you having to do anything. See: /usr/share/portage/config/make.conf.example. This can be logged to files(s) or sent via email, so for example:

/etc/portage/make.conf
Code:
PORTAGE_ELOG_CLASSES="warn error info log qa"
PORTAGE_ELOG_SYSTEM="mail"
PORTAGE_ELOG_MAILFROM="portage@localhost"

keet wrote:
Am I missing anything important, or maybe doing too much at some point?

Rather than use 'emerge -quDN world' (specifically, newuse) you might use 'emerge -quD --changed-use @world' this way you won't be re-emerging packages with use changes that are not enabled.

best ... khay


Hehe that reminded of one quote :

Quote:
Every program attempts to expand until it can read mail. Those programs which cannot so expand are replaced by ones which can.
- Jamie Zawinski’s Law of Software Envelopment

:lol:
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 08, 2013 4:27 pm    Post subject: Re: Maintenance - how much time does it take YOU? Reply with quote

pieterhog wrote:
Newbie question here: how much time will maintaining a "simple" Gentoo system take, in minutes/ hours per week? I'm very close to installing Gentoo but I'd like to know how much time it really takes.

For the past 5 years I have worked mostly Linux-based. Starting on Ubuntu, and later using for sorter or longer times Mint, Archbang, Arch, openSuse, Fedora, Siduction (=Debian Unstable), Sabayon. My "home base" so to speak has always been Crunchbang (=Debian Stable).

I am a normal user, not an IT guy. I'd be using it on a i5, 8GB RAM laptop. I don't use many programs: some office programs & suites, a few editors, VLC, Inkscape, Gimp, some music programs. I do like to tinker, to optimize, to have goofy Window Managers. There are lots of reasons why Gentoo is attractive to me (do I have to preach to the choir?), the one thing that might be a show stopper would be *too* long maintenace times.

So, what is a realistic estimate for maintenance time? Thanks in advance, Pieter


hi,
(I didn't read the whole thread, so plz excuse when I'm repeating something)

Although I'm on my way to become an "IT-guy" I don't understand why so many people fear the "time consuming gentoo maintenance". When I don't make any weird or risky experiments my system is rock solid (after a normal installation with an X-server, firefox, and other commonly used programs) and I type maybe 3-4 times per week:
Code:
emerge --sync
emerge --update --deep --with-bdeps=y --newuse world (--newuse only when I've changed my USE-flags of course)
emerge -pv --depclean
revdev-rebuild


then sometimes there is a larger upgrade (for example when a new firefox version appears) but everything is automated and I can do something else with or without my computer during the compilation, but most of the time there are some small compilations and after that everything is done. So beside of the compilation time there is nearly no need to invest time for maintenance.

What I don't understand is that many "server-guys" talk about gentoo vs debian and say stuff like "gentoo is not stable, compilation takes time, etc" but you can configure gentoo that it is stable too and moreover on high end server compilation time is even less a problem.

Although I'm not an experienced gentoo user, I'm using it since one year on three different machines and never had a problem (of course I had hard problems when I tried something new or exotic, but that doesn't count for a "normal user"). I claim that you have more problems with more complex distributions like ubuntu, mint, fedora etc, because they try to be simple (for the user) but therefore they need a more complex system (hidden from the user) and therefore the changes that something breaks is higher.

I'm digging in LFS at the moment and it's even "easier" than gentoo, because I don't have to struggle with the complex portage system (which is designed to automate the whole compilation and configuration stuff).

So if I said something wrong, a more enlightened user may correct me :)

edit:
if I have to give you a time interval I would say 10 minutes per week (active work), maybe 2 hours compilation time at average (maybe more or less :) )
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 08, 2013 5:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the risk for a bad merge for Gentoo is greater because for stable version distributions you won't get major version bumps that will break with config invalidation.

Granted it's gotten better as of late, but when I first started using Gentoo I've gotten bad and forced upgrade ebuilds come down as stable, and it takes down my machine until I "fix" it. This "fix" time tends to mean dead time and it can measure several hours to debug and repair.

The ones I remember:
Apache1 -> Apache2 forced transition (not blaming Gentoo but it was really painful, and it was time to upgrade anyway)
MySQL4 to MySQL5 forced transition (same)
Expat1 -> Expat2 (Could have been done more cleanly, caused core tools to break)
Libpng (or specifically libtool .la files) (it's fixed now, caused lots of headaches in past)
and even the recent udev upgrade that doesn't exhibit any symptoms until the next reboot.

There were a lot of small hiccups along the way that were frustrating but resolvable. But those still took time to debug.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2013 6:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm horrible about system maintenance. I almost never do world updates because it's such a headache. I suppose if I did them every month it might be tolerable.

I usually update packages on a per-package or per-system basis. For example. a whole bunch of stuff got updated when I made it my mission to get Steam for Linux working.

I try and update my kernel once a year or so, esp. if I have a laptop since drivers can make a lot of progress in that time. The kernel update is usually when a lot of big system updates get done (because they have to be...), and I try and do it during a vacation since I often spend a lot of time resolving dependencies and making incremental improvements over my old system. For example, right now I'm trying to improve the performance of my Realtek wifi device (ha, ha...) and maybe get the Nvidia part of my fancy dual-graphics setup working (right now I just have the intel stuff).
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 7:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My desktop system I maintain practically a little bit daily, it's fun checking for new packages. :D
Not so much time spent on my small daily adjustments, since it's typically only a few changes if any this way.

However, my private server does not get equal micro-management. I don't check it for updates regularly, just when I feel like it or if I notice something isn't right. If I read about some new fixes or features in software I use on it, then I'll pretty much fix that immediately, though.

I think actually that the more constant attention given to my desktop system decreases the overall time spent on maintaining/updating it, as opposed to the bigger and much more infrequent sessions of maintenance on my server. Since my server has a lot bigger need for configuration's being correct, that in itself makes it more of a chore and perhaps why I don't do it constantly.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 5:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Before I started using Gentoo, I was of the opinion that I would have to troubleshoot Gentoo system on a daily basis. But since the time I installed Gentoo, I did not have to troubleshoot even once. Enews has been more than sufficient for most of the package related instructions. I update world almost on a daily basis and it takes at the max 5 mins and moreover I use a latest versions of vanilla kernel and with apparently no issues, whatsoever.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2013 9:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gentoo was my first choice for Linux distribution for almost 9 years. My longest running installation is/was from 2007. During these years I have installed Gentoo on many of my relatives' computers and also taken care of the updates and all. I myself have had several different simultaenous setups running.

My take after all these years is that the amount of work needed is so high that you really have to have your computer also as your hobby or your work. I have seen and worked through so many large scale breakages due to updates that looking back it seems almost unreal -- that is, the amount of tinkering to get everything rolling smoothly again.

The thing is, emerge -aDu world and then rebuilding all broken libraries is the easy part. It's the combination of having some base packages upgraded and then having to compile a new kernel from scratch that'll become a chore eventually, combined with the uncertainty of whether or not everything will run smoothly after the update.

When using Gentoo you have to live Gentoo. It'll give you the chance to see and understand Linux in a very much deeper way rewarding you in the process but in everyday use it'll take time and occasionally get on your nerves.

So to sum it up: if you like to tinker and try different things -- go for it! The maintenance is then part of the joy.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2013 10:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quite often not long enough :)
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 12:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kettuz wrote:
My take after all these years is that the amount of work needed is so high that you really have to have your computer also as your hobby or your work. I have seen and worked through so many large scale breakages due to updates that looking back it seems almost unreal -- that is, the amount of tinkering to get everything rolling smoothly again.

The thing is, emerge -aDu world and then rebuilding all broken libraries is the easy part. It's the combination of having some base packages upgraded and then having to compile a new kernel from scratch that'll become a chore eventually, combined with the uncertainty of whether or not everything will run smoothly after the update.

When using Gentoo you have to live Gentoo. It'll give you the chance to see and understand Linux in a very much deeper way rewarding you in the process but in everyday use it'll take time and occasionally get on your nerves.

So to sum it up: if you like to tinker and try different things -- go for it! The maintenance is then part of the joy.

Couldn't have put it better myself. After spending the best part of last weekend upgrading world (including migrating from KDE 4.10.5 to KDE 4.11.1), which involved fighting blockers and a crashing GUI (I suspect a bug in KDE 4.11.1 Desktop Effects|Magic lamp), I sometimes wonder why I bother. The maintenance is sometimes more agony than joy, but there is a certain satisfaction in getting something to work after hours of labour. ;-)
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 1:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am on Gentoo stable and I am yet to see one breakage for the last 3 months of my Gentoo use. I guess Gentoo unstable is more maintenance but clearly I have not moved to it yet.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 2:01 pm    Post subject: Re: Maintenance - how much time does it take YOU? Reply with quote

pieterhog wrote:
Newbie question here: how much time will maintaining a "simple" Gentoo system take, in minutes/ hours per week?
...
So, what is a realistic estimate for maintenance time? Thanks in advance, Pieter


i'll throw in my 2 pennies...

used to take far longer until i scripted it up.

now basically it takes ...
as much time from me as it takes to type merely
Code:
premerg && mergence

... and maybe some extra time to read the news and output, maybe update a config or two too.
can do that as often as i like
(~well~, the premerg, i try to never do more than once a day max, for good manners convention).
and depending how often i do that, or how long i leave between updates, ~ and whatever big packages i have installed need updating ~, it can be seconds to hours each upgrade. happy to let it do its thing in the background.


i even uploaded my lil update script to github, so that i'm not just scratching my itch.

https://github.com/Digit/mergence

... was gonna make a thread for mergence, and ask for feedback, since i'm a self taught noob and likely in need of being told off for doing it a bad-practice way. a post in this thread will do. :)


p.s.
can take a little extra time meddling with your initial configuration(s), like in /etc/portage/make.conf and /etc/portage/package.use, but it's worth it.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 5:10 pm    Post subject: Re: Maintenance - how much time does it take YOU? Reply with quote

siljrath wrote:
pieterhog wrote:
Newbie question here: how much time will maintaining a "simple" Gentoo system take, in minutes/ hours per week?
...
So, what is a realistic estimate for maintenance time? Thanks in advance, Pieter


i'll throw in my 2 pennies...

used to take far longer until i scripted it up.

now basically it takes ...
as much time from me as it takes to type merely
Code:
premerg && mergence

... and maybe some extra time to read the news and output, maybe update a config or two too.
can do that as often as i like
(~well~, the premerg, i try to never do more than once a day max, for good manners convention).
and depending how often i do that, or how long i leave between updates, ~ and whatever big packages i have installed need updating ~, it can be seconds to hours each upgrade. happy to let it do its thing in the background.


i even uploaded my lil update script to github, so that i'm not just scratching my itch.

https://github.com/Digit/mergence

... was gonna make a thread for mergence, and ask for feedback, since i'm a self taught noob and likely in need of being told off for doing it a bad-practice way. a post in this thread will do. :)


p.s.
can take a little extra time meddling with your initial configuration(s), like in /etc/portage/make.conf and /etc/portage/package.use, but it's worth it.


<commence telling-off>

Hi siljrath,

Your script/s look interesting but when you're paddling such things, it's a good idea to post at least a little info about what it actually does. Most of us are familiar with the tools you automate, so a bit of detail is beneficial rather than tedious for us -- so we can decide whether clicking-through and examining it would be worthwhile (as it might be better than our own dodgy homebrew scripts!).

For example:

What other tools does it use? (Apart from portage itself nothing is mandatory, so don't assume people have things installed that you do)

Does it use non-default options when running them? (I see that it does; some folk may disagree with your selections, so leaving some configurability in their hands is not a bad idea, if a little more work.)

Don't be shy of bringing your work to the table here, you have a like-minded and constructive audience guaranteed (I think!), but remember that you are in a sense "selling" it to people who are often not rich in spare time. Answer the obvious questions for us, always.

---------------

For my part in response to the OP question: I've been a Gentooer for very nearly 10 years now.

I reckon I've spent about 3 of them emerging ;)
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2013 7:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm a chef, not a guy who does IT for a living.
Code:
emerge --sync && emerge --update world

Then go to work. Do this ~once a week to two weeks. Total time a month spent? About fifteen seconds.

Now, tinkering? That's a whole 'nother subject. ;)
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2013 9:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MedicatedCoyote wrote:
I'm a chef, not a guy who does IT for a living.
Code:
emerge --sync && emerge --update world

Then go to work. Do this ~once a week to two weeks. Total time a month spent? About fifteen seconds.

Now, tinkering? That's a whole 'nother subject. ;)


Do you file under "tinkering" things like running etc-update, revdep-rebuild, perl-cleaner, python-updater, and dealing with any other messes the update has left you with? Mebbe you have a very slimline system, but if you haven't needed to do any of the above I'm very impressed!
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2013 12:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

KDE is a monster to compile, so if the computer is slow it can take forever.

Try compiling anything on a netbook and you will understand why I have a distcc node on my server.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2013 8:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hadrons123 wrote:
I am on Gentoo stable and I am yet to see one breakage for the last 3 months of my Gentoo use. I guess Gentoo unstable is more maintenance but clearly I have not moved to it yet.


As I'm using mostly obsolete computers (i.e, my development system is a Athlon 1Ghz buit in ... 2000 !), I'm facing time to time issues when obsolete hardware support is removed. It's mostly related to gfx card, but my usage of such slow computer is mostly headless so I don't care.

But is it only related to Gentoo : unfortunately no :cry:
I installed Ubuntu on my kids' school computer and I faced lot of issue when Intel did bullshit with i915 : it was a LTS version and they never implemented a fix. I battle a long time before I've been able to stabilize.
I was testing Gentoo on one of my own machine which suffered for this bug : the problem was solved in ... 3 days.
It was the straw that broke the camel's back, and I definitely switched all my machines to Gentoo :wink: :wink:
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