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warrens
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 4:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

With consolekit on its way to bit rot and most of its functionality being integrated into systemd-logind Gentoo may be forced to use at least some parts of systemd, no matter that we like it or not.

Gnome already requires systemd, thanks for nothing freedesktop.org, and I am afraid that KDE and others will go the same way, all because consolekit is no longer maintained.

I have tried systemd and I don't care for it much, I much rather use openrc, but I do see upstream source eventually forcing systemd down our unwilling throats. Just my 2 cents, :?
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The Doctor
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 4:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

warrens wrote:
With consolekit on its way to bit rot and most of its functionality being integrated into systemd-logind Gentoo may be forced to use at least some parts of systemd, no matter that we like it or not.


Why not go *kit free? I did that for KDE for about a year before switching to i3 via a rather circuitous route of *kit free window managers.
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dmpogo
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 5:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

warrens wrote:
With consolekit on its way to bit rot and most of its functionality being integrated into systemd-logind Gentoo may be forced to use at least some parts of systemd, no matter that we like it or not.

Gnome already requires systemd, thanks for nothing freedesktop.org, and I am afraid that KDE and others will go the same way, all because consolekit is no longer maintained.

I have tried systemd and I don't care for it much, I much rather use openrc, but I do see upstream source eventually forcing systemd down our unwilling throats. Just my 2 cents, :?


Years have passed, and I still did not get what consolekit is for, and when (and if) it is being used on my computers :)
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Jaglover
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 5:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dmpogo wrote:
Years have passed, and I still did not get what consolekit is for, and when (and if) it is being used on my computers :)


Heh, I can say same for HAL ... :wink:
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NeddySeagoon
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 11:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

warrens,

A static /dev still works. I'll go back to that before I use systemd.
Of course, I have to give up stuff that depends on systemd but thats no loss really.

systemd does not follow the linux way of doing one thing and doing it well. Anything that depends on systemd is tainted too. Much like the kernel with binary blob drivers.

I'm just pointing out alternatives - not kicking off another systemd flame thread.
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Anon-E-moose
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 11:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Doctor wrote:
warrens wrote:
With consolekit on its way to bit rot and most of its functionality being integrated into systemd-logind Gentoo may be forced to use at least some parts of systemd, no matter that we like it or not.


Why not go *kit free? I did that for KDE for about a year before switching to i3 via a rather circuitous route of *kit free window managers.


Just this morning when checking what would emerge with -p option,
I saw that introspection, dbus, some gnome pkgs and a few other things were being pulled in.

I don't have *kit, dbus, etc on my system.
It's the whole embrace and extend windows type mindset being done.
I masked enough stuff so that it quit trying to pull things in but it's getting ridiculous.

I've had to mask a lot of things that depend on the gtk+ 3 ball of gagging rottenness.

So in conclusion it's not just the *kit or dbus, but a whole bunch of things.
I know that many of us have tried to point this out to the systemd supporters
but we were told that we're just conspiracy minded anti-redhat yada yada's.
It seems that we were more correct than the cheerleaders.


Edit to add: I've used gtk+ 2 because I've been running lxde and avoided many of
the gnome and kde apps that want to pull in half of their world respectively. so they can run.
I know that lxde is working on converting to qt and I'm looking forward
to getting rid of gtk+ the same way I got rid of other useless garbage dependencies.
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Anon-E-moose
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 11:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NeddySeagoon wrote:
warrens,

A static /dev still works. I'll go back to that before I use systemd.
Of course, I have to give up stuff that depends on systemd but thats no loss really.


I'm very seriously contemplating doing that myself.

Quote:
I'm just pointing out alternatives - not kicking off another systemd flame thread.


I'm not trying to either, I'm just stating what I've found because of trying
to make my system work the way I want vs the way someone else thinks it should work.
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NeddySeagoon
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 11:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anon-E-moose,

Exactly!
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depontius
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 12:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dmpogo wrote:

Years have passed, and I still did not get what consolekit is for, and when (and if) it is being used on my computers :)


Don't know if this was rhetorical or not, or if that "my computers" is significant... I believe the purpose of ConsoleKit is/was to elevate the privileges of the user logged in at the console, for select purposes. I suspect there's an underlying "make root unnecessary" menality to it, kind of like Ubunto moving so many functions to sudo, but less intrusive.
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mv
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

depontius wrote:
kind of like Ubunto moving so many functions to sudo, but less intrusive.

s/less intrusive/a hell lot more intrusive/: Instead of running a privileged program from time to time you have permanently root daemons running, allowing hundreds of new form of attacks, the first dozends already found, but hackers are only at the start. Windows has a well-grounded security concept, in comparison.
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depontius
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 1:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mv wrote:
depontius wrote:
kind of like Ubunto moving so many functions to sudo, but less intrusive.

s/less intrusive/a hell lot more intrusive/: Instead of running a privileged program from time to time you have permanently root daemons running, allowing hundreds of new form of attacks, the first dozends already found, but hackers are only at the start. Windows has a well-grounded security concept, in comparison.


Perhaps I should have said, "more idiot-user-friendly" instead.
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wuzzerd
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 3:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anon-E-moose wrote:
Just this morning when checking what would emerge with -p option,
I saw that introspection, dbus, some gnome pkgs and a few other things were being pulled in.
...
So in conclusion it's not just the *kit or dbus, but a whole bunch of things.


You can say that again. Recently many new packages keep sneaking in, after a period of several years when things ran fairly smoothly. I finally kicked ruby out yesterday only to have it come back today. Are the devs making massive changes in the depenencies or what?
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tld
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 3:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NeddySeagoon wrote:
warrens,

A static /dev still works. I'll go back to that before I use systemd.
Of course, I have to give up stuff that depends on systemd but thats no loss really.

systemd does not follow the linux way of doing one thing and doing it well. Anything that depends on systemd is tainted too. Much like the kernel with binary blob drivers.

I would absolutely consider that myself if systemd were the only other choice, just as I recently dumped all my KDE apps for other replacements because I could no longer put up with boated dependencies that were otherwise unnecessary for me. I've never dealt with a linux system with a static /dev, though my 'nix experience goes back to the late 80s, so I'm sure i could do it if need be.

Quote:
I'm just pointing out alternatives - not kicking off another systemd flame thread.

Exactly...and this is a case where alternatives are clearly needed by a lot of people. Aside from the (many) things I've read about systemd that I find simply horrifying, my biggest problem with it is that for me, and surely many others, it's a classic cure for which there is no known disease. I just rebooted this system and it took 20 seconds to boot...about 30 all in including starting fluxbox (with statrx), and this is an 11 year old x86 system that's even running everything I need for LAMP development. To me all this parallel booting stuff just sound insanely dangerous for no good reason...for my purposes anyway.

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dmpogo
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 6:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

depontius wrote:
dmpogo wrote:

Years have passed, and I still did not get what consolekit is for, and when (and if) it is being used on my computers :)


Don't know if this was rhetorical or not, or if that "my computers" is significant... I believe the purpose of ConsoleKit is/was to elevate the privileges of the user logged in at the console, for select purposes. I suspect there's an underlying "make root unnecessary" menality to it, kind of like Ubunto moving so many functions to sudo, but less intrusive.


'On my computers' is definitely significant. I have 4 gentoo machines - headless server with many users, but no hotpluggable hardware or sound to deal with permissions, office desktop, with formally couple of users but never really used by any but me, home desktop with all my family accounts, but they also have their laptops, and my laptop which is effectively single user system. I admittedly do not have true multiuser desktop.
I know and roughly remember configuration of all the daemons that are running, but I have no idea of consolekit is ever used, and never saw any effects of its use.

I also never use sudo. I find much easier to pull a terminal, do su - to login as root if I need any maintenance to do.
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dmpogo
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 6:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wuzzerd wrote:
Recently many new packages keep sneaking in, after a period of several years when things ran fairly smoothly. I finally kicked ruby out yesterday only to have it come back today. Are the devs making massive changes in the depenencies or what?



Right, I got into this thread today seeing ruby being pulled in again :( It looks like in the recent years less effort is put into keeping dependencies clean and to the minimum.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 3:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gerard82 wrote:
luismw ++
I will leave Gentoo when systemd becomes mandatory.
Gerard.
No. You will leave Linux as a whole. Because if systemd becomes mandatory on gentoo, it is already impossible to have *any* binary distribution without systemd for a long long time. It won't be even possible to build a desktop based LFS or DIY linux without systemd. Until then, 'gentoo' itself won't make anything mandatory.

You know, people went the same about HAL a couple of years ago. It was the same story, different act. "Only over my dead body! Ye art all trolls!"-chanters versus the "It's the only way ter go! You trolls!"-singers.

... and where's HAL, the one and only truth about hardware access from userland, now? huh?

... The devil is not as black as he is painted ...
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Anon-E-moose
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 4:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yamakuzure wrote:
... and where's HAL, the one and only truth about hardware access from userland, now? huh?


It morphed into other packages. It's still around, and the people behind it (freedesktop org) are still around.
Matter of fact most of it's functionality was put into udev which is now part of systemd. Gee go figure :roll:
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 10:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anon-E-moose wrote:
Yamakuzure wrote:
... and where's HAL, the one and only truth about hardware access from userland, now? huh?


It morphed into other packages. It's still around, and the people behind it (freedesktop org) are still around.
Matter of fact most of it's functionality was put into udev which is now part of systemd. Gee go figure :roll:
So you said it. HAL is gone. Period.
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