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TomWij
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 30, 2013 11:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

schorsch_76 wrote:
Poettering himself did debunk it. May i quote him:

Lennart Poettering wrote:

So yeah, these things are already part of systemd, and I believe that both are highly relevant on what people want from a Linux-based operating system. If you go for Upstart then you opt out of this. I have serious doubts that Canonical will play catch-up with this so quickly. The last time they tried that they took logind out of the systemd tree and ported it to Upstart. logind of course is one of the components of systemd where we explicitly documented that it is not a component you can rip out of systemd.


[1] https://plus.google.com/+LennartPoetteringTheOneAndOnly/posts/8RmiAQsW9qf


Can one component like logind make systemd not modular w.r.t. choice? I've disabled it here and it continues to work. I can run consolekit and it continues to work. While you can't rip it out, things still work. Does that limit choice?
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Anon-E-moose
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 30, 2013 11:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

schorsch_76 wrote:
Poettering himself did debunk it. May i quote him:

Lennart Poettering wrote:

So yeah, these things are already part of systemd, and I believe that both are highly relevant on what people want from a Linux-based operating system. If you go for Upstart then you opt out of this. I have serious doubts that Canonical will play catch-up with this so quickly. The last time they tried that they took logind out of the systemd tree and ported it to Upstart. logind of course is one of the components of systemd where we explicitly documented that it is not a component you can rip out of systemd.



One would think that trolls would be smart enough to know what their leader has publicly stated in the past. LoL
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TomWij
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 30, 2013 11:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anon-E-moose wrote:
One would think that trolls would be smart enough to know what their leader has publicly stated in the past. LoL


Well, I am aware of its existence but what is its relevance to this topic? What does it say about freedom of choice? Or how does the modular argument make a difference in freedom of choice? What is the value of that quote in this topic and how it debunks what was said? You appear to avoid discussion, bringing up and quoting off-topic matters just to avoid discussing the central point and instead make fun of people (and software). Can you now please get on-topic? What are you trying to reach with calling out multiple people as troll, moron, sycophant or dumb? The topic here is freedom of choice. Either debunk its existence or support its existence or stop your destructiveness.
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schorsch_76
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 30, 2013 4:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The more stuff L.P. "document to be not a component", the more distos rely only on systemd, the more freedom we lose. Same logic as with agetty and stuff a few post above.
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TomWij
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 30, 2013 4:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, but that is a possible future that is different from how things are today; thus, we still have freedom of choice.

You can see logind is a prime example of how systemd is keeping the freedom of choice as you can choose whether to run logind on it or not; but, however, GNOME does limit choice here by requiring logind.

"If you pick X, you must pick Y" situations have always been there; so, this is as it has always been. Other desktop environments do not limit this choice, which is a good thing.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 30, 2013 9:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TomWij wrote:
The Doctor wrote:
TomWij wrote:
The Doctor wrote:
It is being adopted because it has absorbed many components that are 'critical' for most desktops.


Do you have examples of this happening?


However, the gnome dependencies on logind are another example.


logind is not an absorbed component, logind was previously not outside of systemd. If it were, we wouldn't have this semi-hard dependency. It is GNOME that decided to rely on that feature and that feature alone; hence, limiting their scope as they go for a systemd-only feature for which no alternatives have existed and not exist yet.


However, it is entirely systemd meaning that one must use the entire init system to use it. Last time I checked it wouldn't run without systemd being in charge. That most certainly qualifies as a power grab by absorbing functionality. There also doens't seem to be much differnce between gnome devs and systemd devs these days.


[quote="TomWij"]
The Doctor wrote:
Of course, that only affects gnome users except if the distro in question needs to use a one size fits all approach. Don't forget, standalone udev support is all but deprecated and upstream is particularly hostile about changing that.

Udev replacements work well enough, except that many applications like chromium and spotify now require udev as a run time dependency.


By "udev replacement" I take it you mean eudev. This leaves out many alternatives like mdev and static dev. Also, since eudev didn't exist when the change happened, it isn't really a justification for there still being choice. It was a reaction against the power grab.

Even though eudev does work, it is still a symptom of software becoming dependent on another piece to have upstream decide to force all users of that software to use their init system. They have admitted udev is going there even when they try the double talk. I find the power grab to be much more concerning than treating the symptoms.
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schorsch_76
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 30, 2013 9:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Doctor wrote:
I find the power grab to be much more concerning than treating the symptoms.


Thanks Doctor, that you hit the nail on the head :)
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 30, 2013 10:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Doctor wrote:
However, it is entirely systemd meaning that one must use the entire init system to use it.

I don't take that seriously what someone claims - be it a developer.
Canonical manages to init Ubuntu using Upstart. Without systemd!
Really? I found with Ubuntu-saucy:
Code:
libpam-systemd
systemd-services
systemd-shim
libsystemd-daemon0
libsystemd-journal0
libsystemd-login0
Seeing kbus coming with systemd-209 and knowing of udev and cgroups and terminal and ...

... many see all of my posts as positioning, political. But I just have my questions sometimes.
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mv
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 30, 2013 11:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ulenrich wrote:
Canonical manages to init Ubuntu using Upstart. Without systemd!
Really? I found with Ubuntu-saucy

Yep, it seems that the organized pressure of gnome+systemd has succeeded to break canoncial and make redhat a monopolist. Which was one of redhats goals from the very beginning, but of course everybody warning about the obvious business war and clarifying the lies of the ostensible technical arguments in it was called a "redhat conspiracy paranoic" from clueless followers like you. Congratulations for succesfully destroying the freedom of choice!
Quote:
Seeing kbus coming with systemd-209 and knowing of udev and cgroups and terminal and ...

Still believing the lies? Read a bit technical truth (especially about the god-so-complex-and-ingenious systemd treatment of cgroups) and then count the sentences in Lennart's posting which are not just plain propaganda lies - well, counting to zero is hard.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 12:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mv wrote:
Yep, it seems that the organized pressure of gnome+systemd


If it stopped there then I wouldn't have a problem,
but in looking at upgrades this morning gtk+-3* and a few other base libs like vte,
wanted to start pulling in stuff that wasn't necessary before
(not sure if it is needed even now, but AFA the ebuild it was needed)

So the tentacles are extending from just gnome, to gtk+ and other things
which are used by many things that aren't necessarily gnome.

This is the whole embrace and extend that we've been warning about
and yet we've been told that we we're just conspiracy minded morons.

*sigh*
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mv
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 1:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anon-E-moose wrote:
but in looking at upgrades this morning gtk+-3* and a few other base libs like vte,

gtk+:3 has become a gnome project (in contrast to gtk:2), and vte was always. That's the problem with gnome: Meanwhile it is probably half of the (previously) open software. That is why redhat has gained so much power by taking over the control of the underlying infrastructure.
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depontius
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 10:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mv wrote:
Anon-E-moose wrote:
but in looking at upgrades this morning gtk+-3* and a few other base libs like vte,

gtk+:3 has become a gnome project (in contrast to gtk:2), and vte was always. That's the problem with gnome: Meanwhile it is probably half of the (previously) open software. That is why redhat has gained so much power by taking over the control of the underlying infrastructure.


Unfortunately it looks like xfce has been rolled into the systemd bandwagon. I've been using "Terminal" with xfce, and it uses vte. Similarly Thunar calls in gvfs, and there are other cross-links.

To be honest, I've tried to stay desktop-neutral / desktopless - I normally run simply a window manager. Today I've found myself ripping off most software that either begins with "g" or "libg", though keeping a few to keep my system working. I'll need to replace brasero and a few others - I believe evince might be one also. I have probably 10 years of financial data in gnucash, and a few weeks back was told that it was only a gtk-2 program, not part of the New Wave. But right now gnucash is at the head of the tree trying to pull in gtk+-3.8.x, and I'm trying to mask/keyword my way around that one.

Nor do I want to go kde, just to avoid gnome.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 11:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

depontius wrote:

Unfortunately it looks like xfce has been rolled into the systemd bandwagon. I've been using "Terminal" with xfce, and it uses vte. Similarly Thunar calls in gvfs, and there are other cross-links.


Well, xfce was always kind of gnome-light, so not much of a surprise
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 11:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

depontius:

I've long referred to xfce as gnome-light as it uses some of the gnome dependencies.

I've opted for lxde and it works fairly well, I have had to modify the libfm ebuild to add a udev flag to get rid of gvfs.
And I've modified lxsession to get rid of dbus and upower.

Thunar has the dbus and udev flag to get rid of dbus and gvfs respectively.

It uses openbox underneath it, so the option is there to just use openbox and add a few pieces like panels, to roll my own de.
But they are working on moving lxde to qt vs trying to shoehorn it into gtk+ 3.

I used to like brasero, and have just gone to command line for creating cds/dvds, though I do have isomaster installed.

Gnucash shows ">=x11-libs/gtk+-2.14:2" so it should work without gtk+ 3.
I've got this ">x11-libs/gtk+-3.4.4" in package.mask to keep away from the later gtk+ 3 packages.

I recently modified lxde-meta to get rid of lxterminal (vte) as I didn't use it anyway, I prefer urxvt.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 11:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Reviewing my gtk+3 and gnome dependencies, I found most of them come from gecko-mediaplayer (via gnome-mplayer).
Is there a good replacement for that ?
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 11:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you have QT installed SMPlayer will do.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 11:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like using deadbeef for online radio/cd/mp3's and smplayer for movies (though it will do music)

Deadbeef has flags for either gtk+ 2 or 3

Smplayer uses qt
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 1:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, qt is fine for me, since I am with KDE - and I even have smplayer installed :)
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 4:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Right, now the last thing that pulls in gtk3+ is kde-gtk-config :) Don't I love it when you need system libraries in order to satisfy their
configuration tools :)
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 3:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dmpogo wrote:
Right, now the last thing that pulls in gtk3+ is kde-gtk-config :) Don't I love it when you need system libraries in order to satisfy their
configuration tools :)
Ha. The most irritating one. Either be unable to configure how gtk+ applications look (firefox f.ex.), or install gtk+:3. :(
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 4:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

depontius wrote:
I've been using "Terminal" with xfce, and it uses vte.

There are many alternatives (xterm, aterm, ...)
Quote:
Similarly Thunar calls in gvfs

Nope. Just disable all use-flags (eix -vle thunar is useful...)
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 7:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What me scares is this graph: [1] Yes, it shows the distribution of installed and used packages (accesstime + installed package) at debian via the popcon mechanism (which is opt in)

Take a look at gnome .... its .... dominating the desktop at debian.

[1] http://qa.debian.org/popcon-graph.php?packages=gnome+kde+kde-full+xfce4+lxde&show_installed=on&want_legend=on&want_ticks=on&from_date=2007-07-01&to_date=&hlght_date=&date_fmt=%25Y-%25m&beenhere=1
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mv
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 7:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

schorsch_76 wrote:
Take a look at gnome .... its .... dominating the desktop at debian.

Which makes sense, unfortunately: When you install a binary distro, you have practically no chance to avoid polkit installation. Once that gaping security hole is on your disk, it makes no sense to care about the rest from a security viewpoint. And since many important things like networkmanager or communication programs with VOIP are practically available only with gnome (KDE had the "ingenious" foresight to remove VOIP support from their only available communication program) it is natural to become a full Gnome addict on binary distros.
I observed the same on a laptop with Ubuntu (preinstalled, not my decision): Everything is prepared and "ready" for Unity. So why take the pain and install something else?

I am very sad to say this, but unfortunately it is true: Source-based distributions like Gentoo are the last resort of avoiding the polkit BS. Once this possibility is lost, it makes no sense anymore to stay with gentoo or trying to install a reasonable, "small" system. If you need something which definitely requires polkit you are already lost...
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 11:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dmpogo wrote:
...since I am with KDE

:) I thought I could be happy with that too... until... I discovered KDE-4.11 stabilization request depending on Gnome-3.8 stabilization request 8O 8O
Then I... started to panic!...
Until... :roll: Johannes Huber recently removed the dependency... 8)
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 12:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mv wrote:
schorsch_76 wrote:
Take a look at gnome .... its .... dominating the desktop at debian.

Which makes sense, unfortunately: When you install a binary distro, you have practically no chance to avoid polkit installation. Once that gaping security hole is on your disk, it makes no sense to care about the rest from a security viewpoint. And since many important things like networkmanager or communication programs with VOIP are practically available only with gnome (KDE had the "ingenious" foresight to remove VOIP support from their only available communication program) it is natural to become a full Gnome addict on binary distros.
I observed the same on a laptop with Ubuntu (preinstalled, not my decision): Everything is prepared and "ready" for Unity. So why take the pain and install something else?

I am very sad to say this, but unfortunately it is true: Source-based distributions like Gentoo are the last resort of avoiding the polkit BS. Once this possibility is lost, it makes no sense anymore to stay with gentoo or trying to install a reasonable, "small" system. If you need something which definitely requires polkit you are already lost...


VOIP - I'm not into this yet, but have been considering Google Voice. Can't I do Google Voice without GNOME? (What I actually want it for is a Wifi-only smart-thing, but if I've got it, I'd put it on computers, too.)

What about Slackware? The guy in the next office runs it, and I'm starting to consider it, if things go too bad here.
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