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wizardaeon
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 1:35 am    Post subject: really need a graphical installer Reply with quote

I sat down and installed gentoo linux today, following the book as well as a youtube video by Zachariah Anderson.
He only included install the base system without GUI in the guide, so I had to follow the guide as well as I could, being that they are not step by step instructions.
My system will boot into Gentoo now but It freezes when X tries to load. I dont have another 7 hours to reinstall Gentoo. Thats how long it took to install the base system and download/compile xorg and gnome-light.

I give up. I would really like to try Gentoo out. I consider myself a pretty smart guy, I managed to get Arch Linux running fine. I just dont understand why Gentoo cant be as simple, and why cant there be a graphical installer.
I am not a computer programmer. I am a Windows technician. I wanted a stable, secure alternative to Windows, so I chose Linux. Theres alot of great Linux distros out there but Im beginning to question, "why gentoo". I dont see the point of a Distro that takes extreme technical knowledge of linux just to use. Maybe I didnt read a disclaimer somewhere.
I wasted 7 hours of my time I will never get back, and I am very unlikely to try installing Gentoo again
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 1:47 am    Post subject: Re: really need a graphical installer Reply with quote

wizardaeon wrote:
I sat down and installed gentoo linux today, following the book as well as a youtube video by Zachariah Anderson.
He only included install the base system without GUI in the guide, so I had to follow the guide as well as I could, being that they are not step by step instructions.
My system will boot into Gentoo now but It freezes when X tries to load. I dont have another 7 hours to reinstall Gentoo. Thats how long it took to install the base system and download/compile xorg and gnome-light.

You couldn't be more wrong. In Linux we do not reinstall, we fix the problem.
wizardaeon wrote:
I give up. I would really like to try Gentoo out. I consider myself a pretty smart guy, I managed to get Arch Linux running fine. I just dont understand why Gentoo cant be as simple, and why cant there be a graphical installer.

Because it wouldn't be Gentoo then. I just got myself another car. It has manual transmission. Wife is complaining - why can't it switch the gears automatically!? If it did it wasn't manual any more. You chose a manual distro - and first thing you do is complaining, why is it manual?
wizardaeon wrote:
I am not a computer programmer. I am a Windows technician. I wanted a stable, secure alternative to Windows, so I chose Linux. Theres alot of great Linux distros out there but Im beginning to question, "why gentoo". I dont see the point of a Distro that takes extreme technical knowledge of linux just to use. Maybe I didnt read a disclaimer somewhere.
I wasted 7 hours of my time I will never get back, and I am very unlikely to try installing Gentoo again

I'm not a programmer either. I had six years of Linux experience before installing Gentoo. I had no problems, it was a smooth ride.
But then again, we do not sell Gentoo here. If you want it - we can help. If you don't - we couldn't care less.
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keet
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 2:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I remember the old LiveCD with the graphical installer. It was so easy; I just checked the boxes for all the options I wanted, chose some other options, and let it go...

overnight....

... and it still didn't finish, and didn't tell me what was wrong. I tried it several times, and still don't know what went wrong.

I think that if someone is at the point of understanding what options are available (specifically for Gentoo) and well-informed enough to choose them from a graphical menu, that person is at the level at which he can install it without a graphical installer. Do you really want an installer with hundreds of checkboxes? That is what I remember (perhaps somewhat incorrectly) about Gentoo's old graphical installer on the LiveCD. That is how a Gentoo G.U.I. installer would be. You'd choose from a few dozen partition layouts, a few dozen W.M.s or D.E.s, hundreds of USE flags.... after checking all those boxes and radio buttons, you'd wish to be able just fdisk your hard drive, download and extract an stage tarball, edit a few configuration files using a text editor, configure your kernel and bootloader, and have done with it.
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cwr
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 22, 2013 11:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There have been two attempts at building a graphical installer for Gentoo. The
first one was said to be flakey, so I avoided it, and when I tried the second one
it tried to wipe the MBR but crashed before it could do so. I didn't try it again.

Building a GUI installer is quite a lot of work, and there aren''t many Gentoo
developers. Better on the whole to stick to the current Stage 3 approach.

Will
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John R. Graham
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 5:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Split from a very old thread (Is GUI install gone? from 2010) and moved from Installing Gentoo to Gentoo Chat. Not really a support request so it fits better here.

- John
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 9:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wizardaeon,

You have selected the plug everything in and tune for maximum smoke Gentoo install.
The result is that nobody knows where the problem is yet.

Still, there is no need to reinstall anything, we need to narrow the problem space to know what is broken and advise on the fix.

The safe way to learn with Gentoo is to grow your code base by building on what you know works. That way, when it breaks, its probably the last thing you did. Fix that before moving on.

The first step is sorting out your install is to see what Xorg did when it started.
emerge wgetpaste and use it to post /var/log/Xorg.0.log
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 9:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I use Gentoo because, as others said, I *want* to do everything by myself. Can you learn GNU/Linux by installing Ubuntu? Will you learn how the modern desktop works by pressing a button labeled "Update Distribution now"?

If you are not interested in these things, Gentoo is not the right distribution.

A second reason is that GUIs for configuration are a pain in the ass. There are so many occasions where it is just easier to "vim /path/to/configuration" and change a single line than to hunt for the (incorrectly translated) option in the "system settings" -- if it exists at all.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 9:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Each of us has it's own Gentoo, they are all different from each other. Each builds its system in accordance with their priorities.
There is no ready-to-use-out-of-the-box Gentoo that you can get by pushing "Install-It" button. Because it is impossible to make such an installer that could handle all possible options.
In other words, Gentoo is a stage3 tarball + basic tools set. Using it you can build something. And you will be pretty sure that noone has the system like you have.

May be it worth to try some binary distro like Sabayon that based on Gentoo. I'm sure it should have GUI installer.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2013 7:05 pm    Post subject: calculate Reply with quote

check out:

http://www.calculate-linux.org/main/en/cls

100% gentoo compatible.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2013 8:13 pm    Post subject: Re: really need a graphical installer Reply with quote

wizardaeon wrote:

My system will boot into Gentoo now but It freezes when X tries to load. I dont have another 7 hours to reinstall Gentoo. Thats how long it took to install the base system and download/compile xorg and gnome-light.


As mentioned, being able to boot into gentoo, and only having problems with X, means you already can narrow the problem down.
This will never mean you need to reinstall Gentoo, since gentoo works.
So, you only need to reconfigure - an maybe reinstall - the application you want to run ... ( apparently X / Gnome)

wizardaeon wrote:

I give up. I would really like to try Gentoo out.
I wasted 7 hours of my time I will never get back, and I am very unlikely to try installing Gentoo again


This is probably not true: Either you want to be in control and learn how stuff works, and those 7 hours are worth it. Or you don't , and then you probably not actually mean you 'like to try Gentoo out'. Better use Debian or something like that then....

So, indeed, as NeddySeagoon says,
NeddySeagoon wrote:

The first step is sorting out your install is to see what Xorg did when it started.
emerge wgetpaste and use it to post /var/log/Xorg.0.log

best thing now is to look into why X wont start...


Alex.
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Yamakuzure
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 28, 2013 9:10 am    Post subject: Re: really need a graphical installer Reply with quote

wizardaeon wrote:
I sat down and installed gentoo linux today, following the book as well as a youtube video by Zachariah Anderson.
He only included install the base system without GUI in the guide, so I had to follow the guide as well as I could, being that they are not step by step instructions.
Why? The handbook is a step-by-step instruction, and once you mastered the basics, kernel configuration is the only time consuming thing until you get into a bootable system. http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/handbook/handbook-amd64.xml
wizardaeon wrote:
My system will boot into Gentoo now but It freezes when X tries to load. I dont have another 7 hours to reinstall Gentoo. Thats how long it took to install the base system and download/compile xorg and gnome-light.
No. Setting up gentoo to a point where you can boot the system on its own is a matter of 1-3 hours, depending on how much time you spend for kernel configuration. X, Gnome, KDE, and so on are not "Gentoo", but the Window Manager and/or Dektop Environment you chose.
wizardaeon wrote:
I give up. I would really like to try Gentoo out. I consider myself a pretty smart guy, I managed to get Arch Linux running fine. I just dont understand why Gentoo cant be as simple, and why cant there be a graphical installer.
Never ever compare a source based meta-distribution with a binary distribution. It never works out. And you have a "graphical installer", see the handbook above. That's all you can have on such a matter, which has been discussed too many times already. In short: There is absolutely no possibility to have a GUI Installation Wizard without taking flexibility away from gentoos users and force decisions upon them they are used to make on their own.
wizardaeon wrote:
I am not a computer programmer. I am a Windows technician. I wanted a stable, secure alternative to Windows, so I chose Linux. Theres alot of great Linux distros out there but Im beginning to question, "why gentoo". I dont see the point of a Distro that takes extreme technical knowledge of linux just to use. Maybe I didnt read a disclaimer somewhere.
No. You didn't understand what gentoo is good for. And that's why there is a handbook.
Handbook chapter 1, Section 1.a: " Gentoo is a fast, modern metadistribution with a clean and flexible design. Gentoo is built around free software and doesn't hide from its users what is beneath the hood. Portage, the package maintenance system which Gentoo uses, is written in Python, meaning you can easily view and modify the source code. Gentoo's packaging system uses source code (although support for precompiled packages is included too) and configuring Gentoo happens through regular textfiles. In other words, openness everywhere.

It is very important that you understand that choices are what makes Gentoo run. We try not to force you onto anything you don't like. If you feel like we do, please bugreport it.
"
wizardaeon wrote:
I wasted 7 hours of my time I will never get back, and I am very unlikely to try installing Gentoo again
If you think that learning is a waste of time, then good bye.
But I really hope that if you like to learn, and there is much to learn when using gentoo, you might consider starting again - by reading the handbook! ;)
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2014 5:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm no coder either, and I've never had as much trouble installing Gentoo. I've done it a few times over the last 12 years. (no more than 6, and not all on the same machine). It's not that hard, but either you want it bad enough to slow down, take the time to go over what you've done and seek help here, or you can complain and quit. I think Gentoo is worth the time, and you'll learn stuff everytime there's an issue, that better equips you for the next time. Patience, and try again. Ask some specific questions, get some help here.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2014 5:32 am    Post subject: Re: really need a graphical installer Reply with quote

Jaglover wrote:
In Linux we do not reinstall, we fix the problem.

wizardaeon wrote:
I am a Windows technician.


:lol:

But seriously, Gentoo might not be the right distro for you if you're not into fixing the issue or learning where you went wrong
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moisespedro
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 8:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gentoo installation was pretty straigth-forward. The only problem I had was that I forgot to install my video card drivers before leaving the chroot and rebooting. Other than that was just me following the handbook. I installed it 3 times this week and last time took me like 3 hours (from 5 to8pm) to get from the livecd to a bare XFCE desktop. It is not that hard (actually not hard at all). And I am a linux noob myself.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 6:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The handbook is a bit verbose. Not saying that's a bad thing whatsoever, but if you already know the install process you can skip over a very large amount of it.

Stage3 install is basically

Partition disc
Download and un-archive "gentoo" to the disk.
Chroot in
Minor config file edit
Compile/install kernel
Minor config file edit including the bootloader's.
Reboot into gentoo.

Getting graphic drivers and X to work is a different story. There's wiki pages for all major graphic drivers, proprietary and free, and a page for how to install X.

Honestly, I stuck with gentoo as my distro of choice because it "just works" more than any distro I've used, the devs seem to make good decisions, and I like the amount of software in the repos.

I have a far easier time changing things around if I've set them up myself, then have someone do it for me and then try to learn about it from there. Ironically simplicity is why I like gentoo.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 26, 2014 6:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've found the best way to install Gentoo is to keep a textual record of the actual process as you do it from the offical Handbook.
Fine tune this record over time for your own specific hardware as you find better, simpler, faster ways of doing it.
A GUI installer would lessen the experience for me, personally. The anticipation of that first reboot from a chroot install IS Gentoo :-)

Here's my text record example for the following hardware:
Code:
MB : Asus Z87-A
SSD : 120GB SSD [ system disk / ]
HDD : 1TB HDD [ data disk /home ]
MEM : 32GB 1600MHz DDR3
CPU : Corei7-4770 3.50GHz
GPU : NVidia GTX660 2GB GDDR5
MON : LCD 1920×1080@60Hz-96DPI
PNT : HP P2015N Laserjet
SCN : CanoScan LiDE 110

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 26, 2014 9:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

well, i for one kinda understand the need for an "gentoo installer"

Story: last week i was given a new i7 work laptop. I was using gentoo on the previous one ( which was also a i7, but previous generation ) and i also use gentoo on the desktop which is an amd ( completly different arch so binaries should not work there ).

I installed manjaro at first ( really liking that distro, the first one to actually stand against gentoo as the complete opposite -> easy and simple ), putting of gentoo instalation because i thought it would be too much work.

Last wednesday, i completly installed and switch to gentoo on that laptop at lunch time, it was a simple 15 minutes, even faster than manjaro ( taking acount customizations ).
The deal was that i had the previous laptop's gentoo instalation in tar.gz, so was only untaring it and configuring mount points and grub2-install and grub2-mkconfig away.

Pretty sweat stuff. I wish i could do this for every new machine ! ( not only if i have a previous cpu compatible instalation )

So, point in hand ->

* stable instalation iso, which as much possible binaries, although not installed by default, something in the lines of "emerge kde" would have all binaries already in.
* stable configuration base ( make.conf and profile and etc ).
* many editions : kde iso, gnome iso, xfce iso, etc .... ( really , many editions, something to make users and developers put online editions ( like funtoo metro , or suse studio , or manjaroISO ) )
( i mention iso, but not really needs to be iso as in livecd ... could be also a stage-kde , stage-gnome, etc )


this not very complicated, not needing to be a "solution to everything installer", just some releases which binaries and configuration.

One could follow the handbook, partition by hand and installing grub by hand or simple ncurses helper... dunno.

At this point, it would be almost like gentoo was another binary distro. OK ... but i do have my configured /etc/portage folder which i use on all machines ( or if not , i could start configuring make.conf and use flags right away ).

Why not this, why not have a easy fast binary instalation and configuration, if i can just do "emerge -e @world" afterwards ? I dont even need that, a simple "emerge -uDN @world" would reemerge and apply my custom configurations.

I just dont see any drawback ... one would have a quick setup running, and while using it ( probably while reading these forums ) one would be "emerge -e @world" or "emerge -uDN @world" in the backgroud.


this is not a newbie or no choices thing ... seriously ... these last 11 years using gentoo, using normal bios, using fakeraid, using btrfs raid0, using uefi... there are just things that "ok , i know ... i dont need to go through this again, i already know it"
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cwr
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 26, 2014 3:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"An easy fast binary installation" is probably Ubuntu on a maintenance partition, which I generally
install anyway; albeit after I've installed Gentoo.

The history of Gentoo installers is a very unhappy one, and I don't think anyone has the time or
the interest to revisit it.

Will
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 26, 2014 4:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I do wonder what the barrier to entry issue does for the userbase. One of the things one has to wonder is what "opening the floodgates" would do as people who aren't familiar with slots or use conflicts would be walking into.

One thing I've observed here in the Gentoo community is that a good 1/3rd of the time people are asking for help they've come back and marked their thread as solved on their own. Usually it was not following the wiki accurately enough or oversight on their end.

Gentoo is very unforgiving, but, the most rewarding. There is no distro out there I'd rather be on.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 26, 2014 4:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
really need a graphical installer
you need ubuntu, not gentoo!
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 26, 2014 10:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cwr wrote:
"An easy fast binary installation" is probably Ubuntu on a maintenance partition, which I generally
install anyway; albeit after I've installed Gentoo.

The history of Gentoo installers is a very unhappy one, and I don't think anyone has the time or
the interest to revisit it.

Will


what does Ubuntu has anything to do with it ? does Ubuntu allow to "emerge -uDN @world" ?

I see that the cry here is the same as on Arch : "Installers are for noobs, use Ubuntu". Its tiring when someone thinks installing a linux distro by console is a great acomplishment.

I dont see why not install some stable reference binary gentoo version, when after changing make.conf configurations, portage will recompile what is needed to change.

Instead of the installer, it would be great to see people doing customized stages. It would be great if we could all share instalations and ideas.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 26, 2014 10:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

shadywack wrote:
I do wonder what the barrier to entry issue does for the userbase. One of the things one has to wonder is what "opening the floodgates" would do as people who aren't familiar with slots or use conflicts would be walking into.

One thing I've observed here in the Gentoo community is that a good 1/3rd of the time people are asking for help they've come back and marked their thread as solved on their own. Usually it was not following the wiki accurately enough or oversight on their end.

Gentoo is very unforgiving, but, the most rewarding. There is no distro out there I'd rather be on.


That in itself is a problem.

But comparing to portage, an installer should be really simple ( really ... portage does and checks automaticly for things far more complicated than instalation )

When i think it should have an installer or having comunity stages available, i dont think of being easier or allowing everyone to use gentoo. I think of people who have installed everything by hand for decades.

really : an iso ( systemcdrescue ) with a stage3 + comunity stage with desktop or specialized apps in binary would be enough for me.

One would only need to boot it, do the fdisks , the copy's, the chainroots , the emerge @world -k ( would pick up the already compiled bin's ) , instant full desktop, the grub2-mkconfig and grub2-install's , reboot , change make.conf , emerge -uDN @world : done !
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 4:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yagami wrote:

really : an iso ( systemcdrescue ) with a stage3 + comunity stage with desktop or specialized apps in binary would be enough for me.

One would only need to boot it, do the fdisks , the copy's, the chainroots , the emerge @world -k ( would pick up the already compiled bin's ) , instant full desktop, the grub2-mkconfig and grub2-install's , reboot , change make.conf , emerge -uDN @world : done !


In essence you are talking about having a set of standard binaries ready for installation. I bet very few people are willing to maintain a huge "build host" that builds "everything" and hosts that publically. However, there are LiveCDs and at least one binary distro based on gentoo. So some one is willing. Have you considered looking at what they do and proposed a similar solution for Gentoo? Perhaps it's not even necessary. The binaries form calculate Linux and sabayon could be compatible with standard gentoo. Have you checked?

If no one offers what you are looking for, I think an "official" binary host could go a long way toward making installation easier. It would support only the most used arches (x86, amd64, one-two more). And it would support the most commonly used 1500-3000, stable packages for those arches with a standard profile. If something like that was offered officially, one would be able to get up and running in no time.

Am I reading you correctly? Did you have something else in mind?
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 9:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yagami wrote:
shadywack wrote:
I do wonder what the barrier to entry issue does for the userbase. One of the things one has to wonder is what "opening the floodgates" would do as people who aren't familiar with slots or use conflicts would be walking into.

One thing I've observed here in the Gentoo community is that a good 1/3rd of the time people are asking for help they've come back and marked their thread as solved on their own. Usually it was not following the wiki accurately enough or oversight on their end.

Gentoo is very unforgiving, but, the most rewarding. There is no distro out there I'd rather be on.


That in itself is a problem.


No, that is not a problem. Gentoo is about making choices and learning from your mistakes. Gentoo is not about being the most popular distro. That "entry barrier" is the first choice you make, are you going to see it through or go to an easy to install distro.

Quote:
But comparing to portage, an installer should be really simple ( really ... portage does and checks automaticly for things far more complicated than instalation )

When i think it should have an installer or having comunity stages available, i dont think of being easier or allowing everyone to use gentoo. I think of people who have installed everything by hand for decades.


So what is wrong for having to do it by hand for decades? It works, takes me less than 20 minutes to get a working Gentoo install, and I can do it remotely from across the network.

I have been running Gentoo for over 10 years now, and I have only had to do 5 clean installs and 3 clone restores. The current computer I am using right now, which has had multiple hardware upgrades including cpu and motherboard, was installed back in 2007ish, and has had one clone re-install (due to a failed drive) plus several livecd/chroot boots to update the kernel/grub/drivers for the new hardware. Just because you change hardware does not mean you have to do a clean install every time.

Quote:
really : an iso ( systemcdrescue ) with a stage3 + comunity stage with desktop or specialized apps in binary would be enough for me.

One would only need to boot it, do the fdisks , the copy's, the chainroots , the emerge @world -k ( would pick up the already compiled bin's ) , instant full desktop, the grub2-mkconfig and grub2-install's , reboot , change make.conf , emerge -uDN @world : done !


You can accomplish the same thing by using quickpkg (1) on your current system, backing it up, and then using a stage 3 install using the backup binary files to rebuild your "full desktop". Your own customized install disk.

And if you clone your hard drive, then you would boot to restore/livecd media, restore clone to hard drive, chroot to hard drive, make changes to kernel/make.conf/grub as needed, emerge -uDN @world, done.

Note: (1) https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Binary_package_guide
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 10:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think effort on an automated installer for Gentoo is wasted effort.
After the initial install there is no need to install again ... people who choose to do almost the equivalent of a fresh install on a regular basis develop their own approach which works for them.
Systemrescue CD gives you a gui while you build your system if you want to take that approach ;-)
I'd much rather developers spend time improving software I use every day rather than something I use once or only a small number of times.

@OP I suggest fix the system you have ... a re-install is rarely the best answer & you would be better fixing what you have. That way you will be able to fix it when you break it in future ... rather than only being able to re-install.

My experience is that people are willing to help you fix things, and because of that you learn more which is rarely a bad thing ;-) ... but it's your system so take the approach you are happy with ...

Ed: you may also find something like http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-950912-highlight-easy.html useful ...
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