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1clue
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2013 12:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I see no evidence whatsoever that you didn't intend to troll. I see no evidence that you intend to stop now. I see no evidence that any moderators care about forum terms of use.
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ulenrich
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2013 12:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

1clue wrote:
ulenrich wrote:
...
The "Macho" in the times of my youth had concluded now:
"There is no way" I "can win this." It is female logic.


So now it's personal insults? Are there no moderators on this thread? How can this not be a breach of terms of use?

No, it was to give you one clue I am not that young :)
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1clue
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2013 12:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You convinced me that you are either very young or very inexperienced with people.

http://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Project:Council/Code_of_conduct

Read that. You've broken it at least a dozen times.
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ulenrich
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2013 12:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

1clue wrote:
You convinced me that you are either very young or very inexperienced with people.

http://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Project:Council/Code_of_conduct

Read that. You've broken it at least a dozen times.

You calling me a troll probably think of this:
Quote:
Flaming and trolling. What is trolling? You are deemed to be trolling if you make comments intended to provoke an angry response from others. What is flaming? Flaming is the act of sending or posting messages that are deliberately hostile and insulting.

I didn't want to "provoke an angry response" from you at any time.
I didn't want to be "deliberately hostile and insulting" against you at any time.
And I know myself very well I am not!
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1clue
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2013 12:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ulenrich wrote:
1clue wrote:
You convinced me that you are either very young or very inexperienced with people.

http://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Project:Council/Code_of_conduct

Read that. You've broken it at least a dozen times.

You calling me a troll probably think of this:
Quote:
Flaming and trolling. What is trolling? You are deemed to be trolling if you make comments intended to provoke an angry response from others. What is flaming? Flaming is the act of sending or posting messages that are deliberately hostile and insulting.

I didn't want to "provoke an angry response" from you at any time.
I didn't want to be "deliberately hostile and insulting" against you at any time.


Quote:

The "Macho" in the times of my youth had concluded now:
"There is no way" I "can win this." It is female logic.


Words of wisdom when dealing with actual humans:
If you say something, and get an angry response, then don't keep pushing it. On the Internet, they call you a troll. If you do it once or twice, it's an accident. Once you realize there's an angry response, continuing down the same track is intentional. There is no way that you didn't deliberately try for an angry response from me. Which makes you a troll.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Internet)
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desultory
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2013 5:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ulenrich wrote:
User: ulenrich
Topic: idea for portage, add pkgs changelog.
Post: post 7430604
Reason: I called someone a liar
I don't know if this is a
- trolling
- ad hominem
but I know this forums got rude and something has to be done
Please stop quoting things from other topics like that, especially the more "colorful" material. In this instance you introduced off topic vitriol into a topic which had, as yet, been free of it. Do not do that.

1clue wrote:
ulenrich wrote:
kurly wrote:
User: ulenrich
Topic: Need help building a non-systemd modern system
Post: post 7431128
Reason: Trolling, off-topic

That time the thread was named:
Need help building a non-redhat non-systemd modern system
But 1Clue admited to like Lvm2
And then he changed his thread title to
Need help building a non-systemd modern system
finally answering me:
"That solved my issue with your this thread."


This post makes me think you're a very YOUNG troll.

None of what you said in this post matters. It was an "installing Gentoo" thread which I explicitly said in the first post I did not want to be a political discussion. You injected politics. You in no way actually helped me decide what to install, all you did is inject your own personal noise into a support request.

Arguing he-said-she-said does absolutely nothing constructive. You posted with absolutely no intention of helping on a support thread, so you should never have posted to it. Game over. There is no way you can win this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Internet)
You overreacted when someone pointed out that you overgeneralized, it really is that simple. While ulenrich might not have been replying as you wished, your response to it in the reports topic is overwrought nearly to the point of self-satire. Had you asked for the reply to be split off instead of engaging in over a full page of debate in the reports topic, it would have been sensibly excisable from the topic. As it is, I am quite hesitant to split it and the replies to it from the topic as there is other topical material in those posts.

1clue wrote:
I see no evidence whatsoever that you didn't intend to troll. I see no evidence that you intend to stop now. I see no evidence that any moderators care about forum terms of use.
Moderator here, informing you that I care enough to tell you that you are overreacting, and that attempting to engage someone you accuse of trolling in debate in the reports topic itself is probably a poor choice of virtual sparing grounds, and partners.

1clue wrote:
You convinced me that you are either very young or very inexperienced with people.

http://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Project:Council/Code_of_conduct

Read that. You've broken it at least a dozen times.
You might do well to examine your own actions with that document in mind.

Split from "Report violations, duplicates, misplaced posts, etc.".
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Maitreya
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 1:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is no complaint but an afterthought. Could the part of en ulenrichs post with "that's female logic" be removed.
It's sexism, doesn't make sense and we should not be part of it and it not of the forums.
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ulenrich
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 1:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maitreya wrote:
This is no complaint but an afterthought. Could the part of en ulenrichs post with "that's female logic" be removed.
It's sexism, doesn't make sense and we should not be part of it and it not of the forums.

Yes, I regret having said that:
When coming under attack, don't try to be funny.

But it fits my renaming of this reporting thread:
How poisoning such a conspiration theory is ...
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desultory
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2013 4:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maitreya wrote:
This is no complaint but an afterthought. Could the part of en ulenrichs post with "that's female logic" be removed.
It's sexism, doesn't make sense and we should not be part of it and it not of the forums.
When I was composing my previous reply to this topic, I appear to have accidentally left out the "mind your phrasing" type warning I had composed regarding that comment, one of the hazards of compiling responses to multiple posts. Even so, sexist and illogical though it may be, I have no intention of revising history to remove poorly thought out remarks.
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Anon-E-moose
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2013 2:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

desultory wrote:
Moderator here, informing you that I care enough to tell you that you are overreacting, and that attempting to engage someone you accuse of trolling in debate in the reports topic itself is probably a poor choice of virtual sparing grounds, and partners.


Only comment I'll make on this, as I just noticed these few threads here.

If one continues to go back and forth with someone that one considers a troll, there is no winning for them.
The troll or assumed troll wins by default.
The only way to win with a troll, and this from experience, is to let it be known what ones position is,
then walk away, do not seek to further try and explain oneself, lest one realize that one is standing on quicksand.

This is not a knock against anyone, but it is the only sensible way to not be embroiled in a non-stop merry-go-round.

Y'all have fun.
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TomWij
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2013 4:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anon-E-moose wrote:
If one continues to go back and forth with someone that one considers a troll, there is no winning for them.
The troll or assumed troll wins by default.
The only way to win with a troll, and this from experience, is to let it be known what ones position is,
then walk away, do not seek to further try and explain oneself, lest one realize that one is standing on quicksand.

This is not a knock against anyone, but it is the only sensible way to not be embroiled in a non-stop merry-go-round.


The article http://www.paulgraham.com/disagree.html goes in detail on this and this can be summarized in a pyramid like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Graham%27s_Hierarchy_of_Disagreement.svg (svg version) or http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m93x01rSVK1qjvxfho1_1280.jpg (jpg version).

How higher you are in his pyramid (or lower on his article), the more respectful you disagree with someone; and the more away one is around from stepping on a merry-go-round.

Someone stating that another person in a troll isn't a refutation or a counterargument, it has no weight at all; its doubtful that it is a counteragument or contradiction because it is often not funded with a reference, because often one says "you are a troll" but never someone says "you are a troll because you have done X with post Y because of Z" which can't make it oppose.

Most of those mentions are responding to tone, ad hominem or sometimes even name-calling; it's hard to tell which of these three calling out another person as a troll belongs to, because it is hard to tell emotion and intention of the post stating the other person to be so. But whichever way it is, it is disrespectful; and effectively ends making the person calling the other person out as a troll walk on troubled waters. As the person whom was deemed a troll can objectively deny it, report it for guidelines or rules violations to remove the merry-go-round entrance or its operator or just walk away from people that those people can't behave.

Discussions often can't have winners; they are there to clarify agreements and disagreements, to come to a common consensus, while it might be in favor of one party or the other you cannot reach something that only fits for one party.

It's a bit tiresome to see people call other people trolls, not knowing better; because well, it's just a worse way of saying "I don't agree, but I can't tell why; so, I'll claim your arguments to magically be moot" (and that rarely works) when you could very well say something along the lines of "I disagree, because my opinion differs; and I want to pursue something else" and simply agree to disagree (or find a common solution).
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NeddySeagoon
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2013 7:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thread going nowhere - locked
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