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666threesixes666
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 21, 2013 4:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hows this for a curve ball. i moved to gentoo from linux from scratch. LFS is sexy, but its unmaintainable compiling everything by hand. gentoo is sexy, and is maintainable. the package management is always a challenge with any linux distribution, and took a little time to get used to. i am completely happy with gentoo, and NEVER intend to go to arch.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 10:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i bounce back and forth. mostly because of libreoffice, which is easier to install on arch, especially if you run ~amd64 gentoo with a 6 year old hardware.
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hadrons123
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 10:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is always binary package for libreoffice. http://packages.gentoo.org/package/app-office/libreoffice-bin
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mrbassie
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 31, 2013 1:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hadrons123 wrote:
Ubuntu>Fedora>Arch>freeBSD>Arch>Fedora>Debian>Fedora->Sabayon(4 days)>Gentoo.

Everyone in the every other forum always said how hard it was to build gentoo from sources and one has to do it all weekend.
But didn't realize why gentoo is made this way. But then I had to find out that gentoo with gnome 2 DE with all the apps built took only 4 hours in my Lenovo Y580.
That was surprising.

Is it just me or everyone else, where even the video playing consumes less CPU usage in Gentoo than other distros?

Gentoo really have zillion options for every package which is a bit annoying.

Performance wise its as good or better than Debian.


It's better. I switched from wheezy with every speed tweak under the sun, no DE just a window manager and a panel, to gentoo with kde on the same netbook and gentoo is a little quicker. Haven't had any stability issues either
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hadrons123
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 31, 2013 1:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How do u measure speed difference ?
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hadrons123
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 31, 2013 1:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How do u measure speed difference ?
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 31, 2013 1:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

With the second hand on my clock.
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titanmech
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 9:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Im considering moving away from Arch.

Right now i've only built gentoo in virtualbox to get to grips with the process, as i did with arch years ago.
But depending on how comfortable i feel with the process i may put gentoo on my artigo a100, and desktop pc.

But i am certain i will be keeping arch on my netbook which i use for all my university work.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 10:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I want ot say I have test a lot of Linux distributions recently for one reason. I want to see my cellular folders and files tree from a graphic files manager through Bluetooth protocol. It have always work with Debian and probably derivatives.

I have not been able to do so with ArchLinux. It was working with Funtoo, but after some problems came back I decide to remove them. Than I tried Fedora and OpenSuse. It was working. I came back to Gentoo and happilly it have work from the beginning.

The Bluetooth problem with Archlinux is just in graphical mode. All utilities work in command lines, like obexftp. I tried everething I can to make PCManFM, Thunar, Nautilus, Dolphin and Konqueror show my cellular tree with Bluetooth, I hit a wall: 'Connexion to device lost'.

Because Systemd is the default service manager of ArchLinux, Fedora, OpenSuse, Mandriva, Mageia and others, I decide to use only System V and Openrc service managers based distributions, what I prefer. So I am now set to stay with Debian and Gentoo for long.
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titanmech
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 10:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@logicien

You know arch supports alternate init systems.

How about replacing systemd with busybox :

https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=162606&p=1
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Logicien
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2013 12:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I do not want to manage a lot of operating systems. For awhile, I was using only Debian. But I want to have a second one. Gentoo differ well from Debian. Busybox could work with ArchLinux. I think it would be simpler and more complete to use Systemd that I like neverless.

I forget, but I keep a minimal ArchLinux installed in a Qemu virtual machine. I can rsync it to a real partition anytime I want.
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hadrons123
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2013 1:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

titanmech wrote:
Im considering moving away from Arch.

Right now i've only built gentoo in virtualbox to get to grips with the process, as i did with arch years ago.
But depending on how comfortable i feel with the process i may put gentoo on my artigo a100, and desktop pc.

But i am certain i will be keeping arch on my netbook which i use for all my university work.


IMHO Gentoo stable is easier and trouble free to maintain than arch. Only the installation part with the kernel building will be tricky. Other than that Gentoo is smooth.

Gentoo is so smooth that there isn't any breakage every 1-2 months requiring an user intervention news on the front page of the Arch website kind of stuff.

Any news that you shall need will reach you through portage while you upgrade your package.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 28, 2013 12:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hadrons123 wrote:
titanmech wrote:
Im considering moving away from Arch.

Right now i've only built gentoo in virtualbox to get to grips with the process, as i did with arch years ago.
But depending on how comfortable i feel with the process i may put gentoo on my artigo a100, and desktop pc.

But i am certain i will be keeping arch on my netbook which i use for all my university work.


IMHO Gentoo stable is easier and trouble free to maintain than arch. Only the installation part with the kernel building will be tricky. Other than that Gentoo is smooth.

Gentoo is so smooth that there isn't any breakage every 1-2 months requiring an user intervention news on the front page of the Arch website kind of stuff.

Any news that you shall need will reach you through portage while you upgrade your package.

That's right.

I remember when I was on archlinux and the rule was: never update before you read the news on the website and checked the forums. You easily get into complicated spots for larger updates and there is really zero conflict resolution.

The worst part is: archlinux does not have any real stabilization policy (correct me if I am wrong, that's what I know from my experience and what other users told me recently, so seems nothing has changed there)... they just push things when upstream says it's "stable" (with a few exceptions for crucial system packages maybe). That's pretty thin.
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hadrons123
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 28, 2013 12:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For some core packages all they need is 2 dev signs and they don't check the package all the time, while they are at it.
Any arch developer can commit and rollout any package in their repos and there is always someone at least once in a month not following the rules or licenses.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 28, 2013 2:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I went through Arch on my quest to find the distribution that best serves my needs.
I'm stubborn about my workstations and servers using the same distribution, building blocks and core ideas.
There were some Arch decisions that prevent it from sitting well on a server. At least I'm not comfortable using it on a server.
Gentoo on the other hand does well on anything i throw it at and is still a rolling distribution.
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kikkihiiri
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 10, 2014 9:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've installed Arch a couple of times on different laptops and in both cases, pacman broke somehow after a couple of package installations, and I was unable to fix it my self or find a solution online. I wasn't very impressed because I've never had any problems with yum, aptitude etc. Portage seems to work pretty good too.
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GSF1200S
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 10, 2014 2:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ive had much fewer breakages updating on Arch than on Gentoo, but im more competent with Arch.

The key to Arch and Gentoo imo is backups and snapshots. Everytime I upgrade Arch or Gentoo, I have a script which automatically takes a btrfs snapshot of the install first. If something goes terribly wrong, I just boot my "preupgrade" snapshot from Grub2. Then, delete rootfs and copy over preupgrade to become the new rootfs. Or, I can boot preupgrade and chroot into rootfs and try to fix the problem.

Gentoo has circular dependency problems, packages which hit the tree before other packages that need them are unmasked, leading to one having to ignore, unmask or do SOMETHING to get the system up to date. Because with Gentoo (as with Arch but even moreso), it does NOT like to sit- all types of upgrade problems can happen then.

Arch usually has problems from upstream, and they can definitely be showstoppers. Gentoo has a much better system for ensuring that (even in unstable) bugs wont take users systems down; run on stable and Gentoo almost never gives you a problem. If it does, you can always ~amd64 it to get through the bug, then simply go back to stable when the tree moves your problem package from unstable to stable.

Arch has problems with this because of binary dependency issues. Sometimes, you need to file a bug and WAIT until either a dev fixes it or an upstream release fixes it- this again is what snapshots are for. I think they both have their pluses and minuses, and I believe there is a place for both :)

**EDIT** I will also say that Gentoo is VASTLY superior if you are concerned with security. Its not even close. A hardened profile will have a system where all programs are built position-independent-executable, stack canary, full relro, fortify source, etc. While Arch has a grsec kernel setup well by a great guy (in community), Arch devs do NOT focus on building packages with safety in mind. This means youd need to use hardened-cc from the AUR and makepkg, then manually rebuild all packages which contain the processes running on your system. This of course defeats the purpose of Arch's binary nature..
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swathe
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2014 12:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm coming back (AGAIN) from Arch. Whilst I never have the breakages on it a lot of people get I find the quality control lacking and the amount of abandoned AUR packages is pretty bad. I've come to the conclusion that the only pros for me with arch are install time and the AUR. I don't hate Arch, I just think Gentoo is better.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2014 2:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

swathe wrote:
I'm coming back (AGAIN) from Arch. Whilst I never have the breakages on it a lot of people get I find the quality control lacking and the amount of abandoned AUR packages is pretty bad. I've come to the conclusion that the only pros for me with arch are install time and the AUR. I don't hate Arch, I just think Gentoo is better.

I recommend to try paludis instead of portage. Portage is not in good shape.

The only problem with paludis is... it's not developed by gentoo devs, so filing bugs or feature requests is a different thing. The paludis developers will not implement things just because gentoo users want it. It has to make sense for them. Additionally, a lot of gentoo devs don't accept ebuild bug reports when they see you were using paludis. To make it even worse, some ebuild writers do things wrong and cause breakage for paludis, but do not notice since it happens to work under portage by accident.

Still, it is a lot less broken than portage and has some interesting features as well. Both can be installed in parallel anyway.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2014 8:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hasufell wrote:
swathe wrote:
I'm coming back (AGAIN) from Arch. Whilst I never have the breakages on it a lot of people get I find the quality control lacking and the amount of abandoned AUR packages is pretty bad. I've come to the conclusion that the only pros for me with arch are install time and the AUR. I don't hate Arch, I just think Gentoo is better.

I recommend to try paludis instead of portage. Portage is not in good shape.

...

Still, it is a lot less broken than portage and has some interesting features as well. Both can be installed in parallel anyway.


I'm considering moving over to Gentoo on a new build I am planning, so this post interests me.

How is Portage broken? Does this mean it's no longer being maintained? / Should I rethink my ideas around moving off of Arch?
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2014 8:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HungGarTiger wrote:
hasufell wrote:
swathe wrote:
I'm coming back (AGAIN) from Arch. Whilst I never have the breakages on it a lot of people get I find the quality control lacking and the amount of abandoned AUR packages is pretty bad. I've come to the conclusion that the only pros for me with arch are install time and the AUR. I don't hate Arch, I just think Gentoo is better.

I recommend to try paludis instead of portage. Portage is not in good shape.

...

Still, it is a lot less broken than portage and has some interesting features as well. Both can be installed in parallel anyway.


I'm considering moving over to Gentoo on a new build I am planning, so this post interests me.

How is Portage broken? Does this mean it's no longer being maintained? / Should I rethink my ideas around moving off of Arch?

Portage currently has ~2 developers, most of them are quite new to that task, because zmedico basically left. The code is pure crap since a decade, just look at it. Getting in basic QA and style would already be a major task.

Also, portage has broken dependency calculation in many ways and gives incomplete, wrong or unusable suggestions to the user on how to fix various problems. But people are so used to these problems and workarounds that they often don't realize it anymore. Recently it was suggested that a problem (one of many) in the dependency calculation can be easily fixed by simply disabling dynamic deps, but even then we have developers who oppose this and don't understand the situation or in what shape portage is.

IMO, we should just abandon portage and revive pkgcore or fork paludis.

Anyway, portage is still less broken than pacman, which is broken by design and they call it KISS (as in: let the user figure out conflicts on his own).
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 25, 2014 7:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hasufell wrote:
IMO, we should just abandon portage and revive pkgcore or fork paludis.

When people says "yeah bad code", and prefer start new code because the old one cannot be understand, then people don't understand why something was made and goes their way.
You just generally endup with brand new code and a brand new variation of........... crap.
And you endup with two different kind of crap, but it's still crap.

So no it's not better to drop portage and redo another crap product, define the structure, what are portage problems... and let devs fix them.

And that is a good example :
hasufell wrote:
Portage currently has ~2 developers, most of them are quite new to that task, because zmedico basically left. The code is pure crap since a decade, just look at it. Getting in basic QA and style would already be a major task.

So, it mean everyone has left zmedico done crap in portage? zmedico was doing what he wants with no goal or method and out of any control?
Or does it mean zmedico was ask to add new functionalities to portage instead of fixing the decade crappy code of portage zmedico inherit?

From what i know i think one of the new dev is dolsen, having try porthole i have no doubt on his skills at python. But if dolsen is asked to add new EAPI or feature to portage... instead of fixing portage with a cleaner code and then must hack old broken and crappy functionalities in portage to met the need of new functionalities; then i don't think dolsen is making shit, but Gentoo is.

What let you think a new tool instead of fixing the existing one will not endup with crap if the policies that let portage gone crap are kept?
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 25, 2014 10:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

krinn wrote:
When people says "yeah bad code", and prefer start new code because the old one cannot be understand, then people don't understand why something was made and goes their way.

So, add "bad documentation" to the list of portage's deficiencies.
I know it's a boring task, but "we did foo because of reason01 and reason02; we did not do bar because of reason03 and reason04" is quite important information.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 25, 2014 12:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

krinn wrote:
hasufell wrote:
IMO, we should just abandon portage and revive pkgcore or fork paludis.

When people says "yeah bad code", and prefer start new code because the old one cannot be understand, then people don't understand why something was made and goes their way.
You just generally endup with brand new code and a brand new variation of........... crap.
And you endup with two different kind of crap, but it's still crap.

So no it's not better to drop portage and redo another crap product, define the structure, what are portage problems... and let devs fix them.

Sorry, that is nonsense.

You don't end up with the same crap if you
a) start things over
b) fix the workflow
c) come up with strict policies for coding style, performance regression tests etc

Did you ever really look at portage code? It has indentation level up to ~11.

Pkgcore is NOT another crap product. Paludis neither. Both were coded with strict philosophy in mind. Please read up before making such claims.

krinn wrote:
So, it mean everyone has left zmedico done crap in portage? zmedico was doing what he wants with no goal or method and out of any control?
Or does it mean zmedico was ask to add new functionalities to portage instead of fixing the decade crappy code of portage zmedico inherit?

I think it was already in that shape when zmedico came on board. I don't want to blame him, he just tried to keep things going. But yeah, we didn't have anyone except ferringb who pushed for QA and performance improvements and those didn't come from hacking on portage, but from a rewrite from scratch (pkgcore).

krinn wrote:
From what i know i think one of the new dev is dolsen, having try porthole i have no doubt on his skills at python. But if dolsen is asked to add new EAPI or feature to portage... instead of fixing portage with a cleaner code and then must hack old broken and crappy functionalities in portage to met the need of new functionalities; then i don't think dolsen is making shit, but Gentoo is.

Dol-sen is sick and will take a long time to recover, so we basically have one dev left who came on board a few months ago.

Sure, the shit doesn't only come from the portage code, but also from random features introduced by EAPIs, as well as bad practices in ebuild writing that people think are good.
krinn wrote:
What let you think a new tool instead of fixing the existing one will not endup with crap if the policies that let portage gone crap are kept?

Those tools are not new, they are already there. So I don't know what you are referring to.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 25, 2014 12:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hasufell wrote:
Those tools are not new, they are already there. So I don't know what you are referring to.

I never said pkgcore or paludis are crap.

What i said is that : even if you fork paludis and pkgcore that were done with your a)b)c) good policies and they are indeed good tools ; they won't be handle with a)b)c) policies in gentoo : the result is that your pkgcore/paludis fork will endup.... crap.

portage wasn't made crappy, it has became crappy.
Fix the rules that let portage goes wrong and stop portage get crappier instead of forking a good tool to make it another crap tool the next year.
As it only seems portage have no a)b)c) rules and the result is what we have today.

edit: i'm sorry if it start derive a bit too much from main thread, i'm not against my portage speech taken away to its own thread.
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