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mounty1
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2013 7:16 am    Post subject: No X please; we're Gentoo Reply with quote

Presumably it's not yet possible to build an Xless system, along the lines of:
Quote:
USE="-X wayland" emerge gnome-base/gnome
? I did try but even doxygen requires gtk+ which requires gdk-pixbuf.

I hard-masked a load of X libraries such as x11-libs/libX11 to make sure that X wasn't pulled-in, but it was.

Why ? I use X elsewhere but this particular machine is a thin client with an Atom N280 so any speed-up is welcome.
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genstorm
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2013 7:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can't find any package that pulls in doxygen without +doc flag. So disable 'doc' unless you need it in some package specifically, if that then requires doxygen, you're out of luck for the time being. Well, the wayland README seems to suggest that the gdk-pixbuf development version has support for wayland. That might be the least of your problems though, so be prepared to hit multiple walls before success.

You need to figure out dependencies instead of hardmasking X packages.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 12:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

genstorm wrote:
I can't find any package that pulls in doxygen without +doc flag. So disable 'doc' unless you need it in some package specifically, if that then requires doxygen, you're out of luck for the time being.
I suspect it's going to be hard to exclude doxygen.
genstorm wrote:
Well, the wayland README seems to suggest that the gdk-pixbuf development version has support for wayland. That might be the least of your problems though, so be prepared to hit multiple walls before success.
So maybe it should be renamed from x11-libs/gdk-pixbuf ? Anyway, currently, equery u gdk-pixbuf does not list wayland.
genstorm wrote:
You need to figure out dependencies instead of hardmasking X packages.
Obviously hard-masking doesn't solve any problems. I was only using it as a way to detect that packages that I expected to be excluded were in fact being pulled-in.

Thanks for the answer. I'm surprised I'm the first/only person asking about this. I thought the main point of wayland was to eliminate X.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2013 10:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="mounty1"]
genstorm wrote:
I thought the main point of wayland was to eliminate X.
Well, in October 2010 Wayland became a freedesktop.org project, and the developers of Wayland are largely present X.Org Server developers. So the goal is certainly not to *eliminate* X.
Currently Clutter, EFL, GTK+3 and Qt5 support wayland, SDL is working on it. Btw, Weston and KWin are the only window managers (compositors) with complete wayland support, yet AFAIK.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2013 1:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yamakuzure wrote:
Btw, Weston and KWin are the only window managers (compositors) with complete wayland support, yet AFAIK.


Are you aware of any other ways to run a Wayland system without using GNOME or KDE coming down the pike? (I thought Weston was a base component of Wayland, not a WM.) I run neither GNOME nor KDE - I have my wife using xfce, and I just use a bare wm.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2013 2:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

E17 has wayland support, I haven't tried that setup myself.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2013 9:35 pm    Post subject: E17 has wayland Reply with quote

Ant P. wrote:
E17 has wayland support, I haven't tried that setup myself.
Unfortunately, E17 doesn't have applications.
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mounty1
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2013 11:07 pm    Post subject: I thought we were bleeding edge ? Reply with quote

It looks like Arch is ahead of Gentoo on this one: https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Wayland.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2013 11:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Then maybe you should go use that until you've gotten over your X11-phobia.

BTW, X11 runs on 30 year old hardware. Maybe the problem isn't your Atom CPU, but your faulty expectations.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 12:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ant P. wrote:
...BTW, X11 runs on 30 year old hardware...


I hate you.

I remember when the Lisa was announced. I saw one, but years later.

I remember seeing X the first time on a DEC at my college, I think it was 1987. I wasn't allowed to even go in the room, but I could see it through the door. I remember the Sun stations we had, one of the teachers got X (I don't think it was X11) going on it and wouldn't tell anyone how to run it or even what it was called.

I remember some Apollo workstations later I had an account on, and some newer Sun boxes that came with X and booted straight to an X login.

I remember XFree86 when it was either entertaining or frustrating, depending on how badly you wanted it to work. Almost completely unusable in any practical application. I was running Linux then, but perfectly comfortable without X or a mouse so for me it was an entertaining way to waste some time.

What I didn't realize is that this all started with the Lisa about 30 years ago.

I'm feeling all of my years right now.

Thanks a bunch.
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mounty1
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 1:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ant P. wrote:
Then maybe you should go use that until you've gotten over your X11-phobia..
I've been using X quite happily for eighteen years but am always interested in novel technology; that's why I use Gentoo, since it's usually amongst the first to package such technology and make it available.

Ant P. wrote:
BTW, X11 runs on 30 year old hardware. Maybe the problem isn't your Atom CPU, but your faulty expectations.
I currently use the Atom machine with lightdm acting as an XDMCP client talking to a KVMed Gentoo instance running on a headless server, but am interested in moving CPU cycles off the server.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2013 7:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

depontius wrote:
Yamakuzure wrote:
Btw, Weston and KWin are the only window managers (compositors) with complete wayland support, yet AFAIK.


Are you aware of any other ways to run a Wayland system without using GNOME or KDE coming down the pike? (I thought Weston was a base component of Wayland, not a WM.) I run neither GNOME nor KDE - I have my wife using xfce, and I just use a bare wm.
This is a bit old (March 2013), but Wikipedia states this:

Toolkits:
  • Clutter has complete Wayland support.
  • EFL has complete Wayland support, except for selection.
  • GTK+ 3 support is complete, including client-side decorations and is scheduled to be part of the 3.10 release in September 2013.
  • Qt 5 has complete Wayland support, including the client-side decorations.
  • SDL support for Wayland is under development


Window managers:
  • Weston – the reference implementation of a Wayland Compositor.
  • Enlightenment 0.19 (E19) is expected to have full Wayland support.
  • KWin had incomplete Wayland support in April 2013.
  • Mutter has incomplete Wayland support.
  • Clayland is a simple example Wayland compositor using Clutter.


I am currently working on a small Gentoo VM using hardened profile, no-multilib, full ~amd64 and Wayland support. But it is no top priority, so this'll need a while. Currently I have no idea whether it is possible to build something graphical on Wayland without X or not.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2013 7:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yamakuzure wrote:
Currently I have no idea whether it is possible to build something graphical on Wayland without X or not.
My experience is that USE="-X wayland" gtk+ requires gdk-pixbuf with X.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 16, 2013 1:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is this a gentoo or wayland issue?
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 16, 2013 6:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's a gtk+/gdk-pixbuf issue
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 12:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, it is an "understanding"-issue.

@mounty1 : What pulls in gdk-pixbuf?

However, of course you'll need plenty of X-related packages like libraries and stuff. Wayland is not meant to substitute everything that is found in any of the x11-* categories.

Basically it is just a way to remove xorg-server as a proxy from between the compositor (window manager) and the kernel.

Wayland support in kwin-4.11 is highly experimental, so I am trying to build enlightenment with "-X wayland". But ecore-1.7.8, for example, still needs libX11 installed with "-X xcb wayland". I am not finished, yet (lack of time), but until now, nothing forces anything to install with USE="X" (, yet!).
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 3:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yamakuzure wrote:
@mounty1 : What pulls in gdk-pixbuf?
gtk+
Yamakuzure wrote:
However, of course you'll need plenty of X-related packages like libraries and stuff. Wayland is not meant to substitute everything that is found in any of the x11-* categories.

Basically it is just a way to remove xorg-server as a proxy from between the compositor (window manager) and the kernel.

Wayland support in kwin-4.11 is highly experimental, so I am trying to build enlightenment with "-X wayland". But ecore-1.7.8, for example, still needs libX11 installed with "-X xcb wayland".
That's the bit that I don't get; if it's pulling-in libX11, it's using the X protocol and wants to talk to an X server, n'est-ce pas?
Yamakuzure wrote:
I am not finished, yet (lack of time), but until now, nothing forces anything to install with USE="X" (, yet!).
OK; your efforts are appreciated.
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