Gentoo Forums
Gentoo Forums
Gentoo Forums
Quick Search: in
The Economic Philosopher's Outcast: Mises
View unanswered posts
View posts from last 24 hours

Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3  
Reply to topic    Gentoo Forums Forum Index Off the Wall
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Bones McCracker
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 14 Mar 2006
Posts: 1569
Location: U.S.A.

PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 5:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pantsonfire wrote:
BoneKracker wrote:
Blindly repeating the same debunked propganda (sic) doesn't make it correct.


As usual, you haven't got a clue what you're talking about - none of you.

I say again: you are begging the question, and so is the source you are citing. You can't prove that an egalitarian philosophy is superior to a non-egalitarian philosophy by measuring it ability to achieve egalitarianism. This is called begging the question. Also, you can't prove it's better in general by ignoring the most important successes and areas of achievement of the non-egalitarian philosophy. This is called cherry-picking.

pantsonfire wrote:
The question remains: how does libertarianism create equality?

The question does not remain. The question was answered the first time I answered it. Libertarianism doesn't seek to create equality. Seeking to create "equality" is a crime against humanity. Classicial liberals / libertarians believe all people have the same rights; the extent their rights are not violated, all people have equal opportunity. Protecting people's rights is good. Trying to force some kind of artificial "equality" on people is evil -- it is dehumanizing and produces a culture of drones who have learned to be helpless.
_________________
"The accumulation of all power, legislative, executive, and judiciary in the same hands...may justly be pronounced the very definition of tyranny."
--James Madison, Federalist 46
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Ahenobarbi
Developer
Developer


Joined: 02 Apr 2009
Posts: 345
Location: Warsaw, PL

PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 5:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
The question does not remain. The question was answered the first time I answered it. Libertarianism doesn't seek to create equality. Seeking to create "equality" is a crime against humanity. Classicial liberals / libertarians believe all people have the same rights; the extent their rights are not violated, all people have equal opportunity. Protecting people's rights is good. Trying to force some kind of artificial "equality" on people is evil -- it is dehumanizing and produces a culture of drones who have learned to be helpless.


It's true that creating equality is not an explicit goal of Libertarianism, but reducing inequality is one of effects of it's application.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Bones McCracker
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 14 Mar 2006
Posts: 1569
Location: U.S.A.

PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 6:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ahenobarbi wrote:
BoneKracker wrote:
The question does not remain. The question was answered the first time I answered it. Libertarianism doesn't seek to create equality. Seeking to create "equality" is a crime against humanity. Classicial liberals / libertarians believe all people have the same rights; the extent their rights are not violated, all people have equal opportunity. Protecting people's rights is good. Trying to force some kind of artificial "equality" on people is evil -- it is dehumanizing and produces a culture of drones who have learned to be helpless.


It's true that creating equality is not an explicit goal of Libertarianism, but reducing inequality is one of effects of it's application.

Yes. Equal rights and equal opportunity does happen to have the effect of a tendency toward relatively equal outcomes, but that is not its objective. The fact that the rights are equal (provided they are not violated) is itself the whole point.

Personally, I happen to believe in some socialist concessions as a practical matter, but I think a social philosophy that, by design and intent seeks primary to achieve "equality" is EVIL, because it it's a simple scientific reality that people are not "equal" (which is not to say they don't have equal rights), and seeking to try to make them "equal" inevitably violates rights, turns people into helpless drones, and creates authoritarianism.
_________________
"The accumulation of all power, legislative, executive, and judiciary in the same hands...may justly be pronounced the very definition of tyranny."
--James Madison, Federalist 46
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Prenj
n00b
n00b


Joined: 20 Nov 2011
Posts: 13

PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 7:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Perfect "socialism" or call it what you will would be informal, non-enforced social contract, or rather, an agreement between developed and aware free individuals. Enforced "socialism" is just another name for hive where everybody is supposed to pretend that we are all somehow magically "equal" in terms of body mechanics, neurology, and the effect of the social background (which is attempted to be negated by the state). Those who can't pretend good enough are obviously bad people and shall be cured with Ritalin.
_________________
“If You Meet the Buddha on the Road, Kill Him”
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
McGruff
Tux's lil' helper
Tux's lil' helper


Joined: 28 Dec 2004
Posts: 147

PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 10:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ahenobarbi wrote:
What I saw was a lot of statistics to twist truth and hand wave where all the problems with his thesis are.


Bullshit. These are serious researchers. There is no hand-waving - but there is a solid pile of evidence.

Quote:
And actually libertarianism helps very much with spreading equality.
...
By removing obstacles that prevent poor people from becoming rich. Like removing fixed costs (social "insurance", cash registers, required certification) for trying to do something. Or removing complex laws. Those are no big deal for "rich", but efficiently prevent "poor" from trying to improve their situation.


OK so we remove some laws and... suddenly everyone is magically equal!

We seem to be missing a piece in between.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Bones McCracker
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 14 Mar 2006
Posts: 1569
Location: U.S.A.

PostPosted: Fri Aug 30, 2013 12:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pantsonfire wrote:
Ahenobarbi wrote:
What I saw was a lot of statistics to twist truth and hand wave where all the problems with his thesis are.


Bullshit. These are serious researchers. There is no hand-waving - but there is a solid pile of evidence.

Nonsense. It's nothing but propaganda.
_________________
"The accumulation of all power, legislative, executive, and judiciary in the same hands...may justly be pronounced the very definition of tyranny."
--James Madison, Federalist 46
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Ahenobarbi
Developer
Developer


Joined: 02 Apr 2009
Posts: 345
Location: Warsaw, PL

PostPosted: Fri Aug 30, 2013 2:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pantsonfire wrote:
Ahenobarbi wrote:
What I saw was a lot of statistics to twist truth and hand wave where all the problems with his thesis are.


Bullshit. These are serious researchers. There is no hand-waving - but there is a solid pile of evidence.


Apparently we watched different speeches. In the one I watched guy spoke a lot about correlations that are quite well explained by what I wrote (and my explanation works for societies that aren't "modern, wealthy democratic countries" so I insist mine is correct). then he said "yeah, there are some glaring weaknesses in that argument, but don't worry we checked that". Somehow skipping the hard part of explanation looks to me like he didn't have an actual evidence there.

Feel free to link to that solid evidence you've seen.

pantsonfire wrote:

Quote:
And actually libertarianism helps very much with spreading equality.
...
By removing obstacles that prevent poor people from becoming rich. Like removing fixed costs (social "insurance", cash registers, required certification) for trying to do something. Or removing complex laws. Those are no big deal for "rich", but efficiently prevent "poor" from trying to improve their situation.


OK so we remove some laws and... suddenly everyone is magically equal!

We seem to be missing a piece in between.


Not everyone is magically equal. But gap narrows. Because removing those laws removes (relatively) most burden from the poorest and the weakest. So they can improve their existence (and the change enables them to improve more than those who are already doing well).
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
McGruff
Tux's lil' helper
Tux's lil' helper


Joined: 28 Dec 2004
Posts: 147

PostPosted: Fri Aug 30, 2013 4:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ahenobarbi wrote:
Feel free to link to that solid evidence you've seen.


This is just stupid. Read The Spirit Level.

Ahenobarbi wrote:
Not everyone is magically equal. But gap narrows. Because removing those laws removes (relatively) most burden from the poorest and the weakest. So they can improve their existence (and the change enables them to improve more than those who are already doing well).


All you're doing is asserting that something is true without explaining why. How does removing "those" laws (whatever they are) make people more equal?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Ahenobarbi
Developer
Developer


Joined: 02 Apr 2009
Posts: 345
Location: Warsaw, PL

PostPosted: Fri Aug 30, 2013 6:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pantsonfire wrote:
Ahenobarbi wrote:
Feel free to link to that solid evidence you've seen.


This is just stupid.Read The Spirit Level.


This was most convincing.

Sadly quick check didn't reveal anything addressing problems with the proposed thesis. Of course if I missed something feel free to point me to the evidence.

pantsonfire wrote:

Ahenobarbi wrote:
Not everyone is magically equal. But gap narrows. Because removing those laws removes (relatively) most burden from the poorest and the weakest. So they can improve their existence (and the change enables them to improve more than those who are already doing well).


All you're doing is asserting that something is true without explaining why. How does removing "those" laws (whatever they are) make people more equal?


Gee I don't know. How did prohibiting slavery help making people more equal?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Bones McCracker
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 14 Mar 2006
Posts: 1569
Location: U.S.A.

PostPosted: Fri Aug 30, 2013 8:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Or creating democracy.
_________________
"The accumulation of all power, legislative, executive, and judiciary in the same hands...may justly be pronounced the very definition of tyranny."
--James Madison, Federalist 46
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
McGruff
Tux's lil' helper
Tux's lil' helper


Joined: 28 Dec 2004
Posts: 147

PostPosted: Fri Aug 30, 2013 8:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ahenobarbi wrote:
Sadly quick check didn't reveal anything addressing problems with the proposed thesis. Of course if I missed something feel free to point me to the evidence.


You clearly didn't understand the argument he is making. For one thing, everyone benefits in a more equal society. It's not just about the poor.

There is also plenty information on the website about methods and sources, if you'd bothered to look.

Ahenobarbi wrote:
How did prohibiting slavery help making people more equal?


Ah yes: libertarians are the only people who oppose slavery. :roll:

Explain how peculiarly libertarian ideas create equality, if you can.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Ahenobarbi
Developer
Developer


Joined: 02 Apr 2009
Posts: 345
Location: Warsaw, PL

PostPosted: Fri Aug 30, 2013 9:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pantsonfire wrote:
Ahenobarbi wrote:
Sadly quick check didn't reveal anything addressing problems with the proposed thesis. Of course if I missed something feel free to point me to the evidence.


You clearly didn't understand the argument he is making. For one thing, everyone benefits in a more equal society. It's not just about the poor.

There is also plenty information on the website about methods and sources, if you'd bothered to look.


Yeah, I did bother to look and saw nothing that makes supports "equality matters, even if you take poverty into account". Like statistical analysis accounting for both "equality" and "part of poor people in the society".

pantsonfire wrote:

Ahenobarbi wrote:
How did prohibiting slavery help making people more equal?


Ah yes: libertarians are the only people who oppose slavery. :roll:


Hi corporal Strawman.

Implementing libertarian ideas helps poor in the same way - removing obstacles on their way to prosperity. How many times shall I repeat that before you bother to respond to it:?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
McGruff
Tux's lil' helper
Tux's lil' helper


Joined: 28 Dec 2004
Posts: 147

PostPosted: Fri Aug 30, 2013 10:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I keep asking you to explain it.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Muso
l33t
l33t


Joined: 22 Oct 2002
Posts: 657
Location: The Holy city of Honolulu

PostPosted: Fri Aug 30, 2013 10:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pantsonfire wrote:
I keep asking you to explain it.


It's self evident. If it isn't self evident for you, please explain why having obstacles is good.
_________________
I, for one, am glad to be living on a planet with 776x the mass of the super-massive black hole at the center of the milky way just to keep Neptune in its daily orbit around the Earth.
auf alten Schiffen lernt man Segeln.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
McGruff
Tux's lil' helper
Tux's lil' helper


Joined: 28 Dec 2004
Posts: 147

PostPosted: Fri Aug 30, 2013 10:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What obstacles are you talking about, m'lady, and how do they hold back the poor?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Muso
l33t
l33t


Joined: 22 Oct 2002
Posts: 657
Location: The Holy city of Honolulu

PostPosted: Fri Aug 30, 2013 11:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You can lead a dishonest bet welcher to thought, but a bet welcher with no honor can do no thinking.
_________________
I, for one, am glad to be living on a planet with 776x the mass of the super-massive black hole at the center of the milky way just to keep Neptune in its daily orbit around the Earth.
auf alten Schiffen lernt man Segeln.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Gentoo Forums Forum Index Off the Wall All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3
Page 3 of 3

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum