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lefsha
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 3:58 pm    Post subject: Why am I forced to install systemd???? Reply with quote

I just wen back from Arch, because of shitty systemd and now I am forced to install systemd in Gentoo.
At least several dependences tell me so.
I have masked udev-206 to prevent this, but over and over again systemd came up from one or another dependence.

Will Gentoo also switch to systemd by default? And should I migrate to another distributive?


It's a mess happening with Linux last time. Everything what has been working for years need to be broken
with only a headache. Well that is IMHO, but having Gentoo installed the very first thing I dont want to be pushed to install something I don't want.

Another thing in Gentoo I hate is hard dependences which are unnecessary. If doing so why bother with compilation
just call it Ubuntu and stop the party. There are thousands of examples but most obvious sandbox in portage.

10 years ago Gentoo was better. much better.

P.S. Any indication about alternative will be appreciated.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 4:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Are you perhaps a Gnome user? Gnome 3.* has chosen to create hard dependencies on some elements of systemd. On my Gnome-less installations, Gentoo is not forcing me to install systemd. I don't think Gentoo is the bad guy here.

- John
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 4:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Code:
Will Gentoo also switch to systemd by default? And should I migrate to another distributive?


At present and as far as I know, no and no.

I recommend you mask systemd. You can use eudev to avoid the mess entirely. Its a udev fork that is meant to preserve a non-systemd udev. I think udev now requires systemd to build. This is due to upstreams grand plan of forcing everyone to use systemd.

Personally I use mdev instead. I don't know it its an option for you, but alternatives do exist. You could also use static dev as well, if you are brave. I have no info on that.

EDIT: OK, beaten to post and I did miss the obvious... Oh well, at least this is still true.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 4:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John R. Graham wrote:
Are you perhaps a Gnome user? Gnome 3.* has chosen to create hard dependencies on some elements of systemd. On my Gnome-less installations, Gentoo is not forcing me to install systemd. I don't think Gentoo is the bad guy here.

- John


It has nothing to do with Gnome! And I use NO Gnome. I will shoot in my foot before using Gnome...
I am using MATE.

But today I have problem with following packages:
sys-apps/hwids-20130717-r1
and
dev-libs/libusbx-1.0.16-r3:1

the second is wondering me most. It has dependence
udev? ( >=virtual/udev-200[${MULTILIB_USEDEP}] )

which I consider as udev-200 is enough. but NO it wants to have higher version. What means = then is a surprise for me.

removing all that stupid conditions everything becomes normal! it compiles and it works...

But hey I can't edit ebuild each time I update the system or install something new.
What the point of portage then???
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 4:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Doctor wrote:

I recommend you mask systemd. You can use eudev to avoid the mess entirely. Its a udev fork that is meant to preserve a non-systemd udev. I think udev now requires systemd to build. This is due to upstreams grand plan of forcing everyone to use systemd.

Personally I use mdev instead. I don't know it its an option for you, but alternatives do exist. You could also use static dev as well, if you are brave. I have no info on that.

EDIT: OK, beaten to post and I did miss the obvious... Oh well, at least this is still true.


Well first masking doesn't help! It only creates error messages because systemd is required to continue.

I will be happy to use mdev or eudev or what ever else IF
1. I find instructions
2. Someone explain me how to avoid dependences in portage which will go nowhere if I use this or that program.

Actually I don't criticize systemd itself as long as I don't have to use it. I criticize Portage dependences which I can't
correct every single time while updating the system. The most funny to me that my corrections work and system
is up and running and I have no problem so far. So why?? this dependences are here? Is Lennart sending new ebuilds to portage?
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 4:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i dont use the gnome fork - mate, and im not forced to systemd. i use xfce4, its completely divorced from gnome. mate is not....
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 5:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Doctor wrote:
Code:
Will Gentoo also switch to systemd by default? And should I migrate to another distributive?


At present and as far as I know, no and no.

I recommend you mask systemd. You can use eudev to avoid the mess entirely. Its a udev fork that is meant to preserve a non-systemd udev. I think udev now requires systemd to build. This is due to upstreams grand plan of forcing everyone to use systemd.

Personally I use mdev instead. I don't know it its an option for you, but alternatives do exist. You could also use static dev as well, if you are brave. I have no info on that.

EDIT: OK, beaten to post and I did miss the obvious... Oh well, at least this is still true.


You are badly confused as sys-fs/udev doesn't require sys-apps/systemd in any way, and using sys-fs/eudev doesn't help at all. The default setup is still sys-apps/openrc + sys-fs/udev.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 5:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lefsha wrote:
John R. Graham wrote:
Are you perhaps a Gnome user? Gnome 3.* has chosen to create hard dependencies on some elements of systemd. On my Gnome-less installations, Gentoo is not forcing me to install systemd. I don't think Gentoo is the bad guy here.

- John


It has nothing to do with Gnome! And I use NO Gnome. I will shoot in my foot before using Gnome...
I am using MATE.

But today I have problem with following packages:
sys-apps/hwids-20130717-r1
and
dev-libs/libusbx-1.0.16-r3:1

the second is wondering me most. It has dependence
udev? ( >=virtual/udev-200[${MULTILIB_USEDEP}] )

which I consider as udev-200 is enough. but NO it wants to have higher version. What means = then is a surprise for me.

removing all that stupid conditions everything becomes normal! it compiles and it works...

But hey I can't edit ebuild each time I update the system or install something new.
What the point of portage then???


You read the >= right but ignored the fact it also has [${MULTILIB_USEDEP}] in the end and that's provided only by latest udev (or eudev, or systemd) in Portage.
Like for example, it's there to ensure you also have 32bit libudev library for 32bit libusbx library.
If you simply modify the ebuild and remove it, you'll be breaking the dependency tree and cause system breakage through skipped/missing libraries.

Futhermore if you install too new hwids for too old udev it might potentially break your keyboard / your keyboard's layout / cause other issues with keys because only latest udev has
the 'keymap hwdb' support and installing the hwids keyboard files for old udev cause conflict with the old keymap and the new keymap hwdb supports.

In otherwords, upgrade is necessary if you plan on using the new multilib ebuilds in ~arch as the old udev ebuilds don't provide way of building both 32bit and 64bit libs at the same time. And to ensure keyboard/keymap keeps working.
Older than 206 is not compatible with current ~arch packages, the end.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 6:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ssuominen wrote:

Like for example, it's there to ensure you also have 32bit libudev library for 32bit libusbx library.
If you simply modify the ebuild and remove it, you'll be breaking the dependency tree and cause system breakage through skipped/missing libraries.

Futhermore if you install too new hwids for too old udev it might potentially break your keyboard / your keyboard's layout / cause other issues with keys because only latest udev has
the 'keymap hwdb' support and installing the hwids keyboard files for old udev cause conflict with the old keymap and the new keymap hwdb supports.

In otherwords, upgrade is necessary if you plan on using the new multilib ebuilds in ~arch as the old udev ebuilds don't provide way of building both 32bit and 64bit libs at the same time. And to ensure keyboard/keymap keeps working.
Older than 206 is not compatible with current ~arch packages, the end.


Who told you that I am using 64-bit system?
It's there for nothing! ebuild must prove first whether it is 32 or 64 bit system to make any further conclusions!

There is nothing more stupid then to check whether I have 32-bit lib on 32 bit system!

So of course I break nothing. And the proof is before my eyes. It works. The End.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 6:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

666threesixes666 wrote:
i dont use the gnome fork - mate, and im not forced to systemd. i use xfce4, its completely divorced from gnome. mate is not....


I can't use xfce because it is so bad. But that is not the point. The problem is not related to MATE in anyway.
Therefore I can't get your point.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 6:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ssuominen wrote:

You are badly confused as sys-fs/udev doesn't require sys-apps/systemd in any way, and using sys-fs/eudev doesn't help at all. The default setup is still sys-apps/openrc + sys-fs/udev.


Of course not. And I am blind. And can not update system because I don't want to.....

See yourself below:

Code:
[ebuild     U #]       sys-apps/hwids-20130717-r1 [20130717] USE="udev" 8 kB
[ebuild     U #]        virtual/udev-206-r2 [200] USE="gudev -introspection -kmod (-selinux) -static-libs (-hwdb%*) (-keymap%*)" 0 kB
[ebuild  N     ]         sys-apps/systemd-206-r3  USE="gudev lzma openrc policykit -acl -audit -cryptsetup -doc -filecaps -firmware-loader -gcrypt -http -introspection

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 7:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lefsha wrote:
ssuominen wrote:

You are badly confused as sys-fs/udev doesn't require sys-apps/systemd in any way, and using sys-fs/eudev doesn't help at all. The default setup is still sys-apps/openrc + sys-fs/udev.


Of course not. And I am blind. And can not update system because I don't want to.....

See yourself below:

Code:
[ebuild     U #]       sys-apps/hwids-20130717-r1 [20130717] USE="udev" 8 kB
[ebuild     U #]        virtual/udev-206-r2 [200] USE="gudev -introspection -kmod (-selinux) -static-libs (-hwdb%*) (-keymap%*)" 0 kB
[ebuild  N     ]         sys-apps/systemd-206-r3  USE="gudev lzma openrc policykit -acl -audit -cryptsetup -doc -filecaps -firmware-loader -gcrypt -http -introspection


There could be multiple reasons as to why it's pulling in sys-apps/systemd instead of sys-fs/udev, like having some GNOME packages installed, or by mistakenly masking newer version of sys-fs/udev, ...
Use more verbose output like you'd get from 'emerge -pvDNut world' where the -t is important flag, will show the dependency tree.
You can also mask sys-apps/systemd in /etc/portage/package.mask, that usually helps to trigger different (likely more clear) output.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 7:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lefsha wrote:
ssuominen wrote:

Like for example, it's there to ensure you also have 32bit libudev library for 32bit libusbx library.
If you simply modify the ebuild and remove it, you'll be breaking the dependency tree and cause system breakage through skipped/missing libraries.

Futhermore if you install too new hwids for too old udev it might potentially break your keyboard / your keyboard's layout / cause other issues with keys because only latest udev has
the 'keymap hwdb' support and installing the hwids keyboard files for old udev cause conflict with the old keymap and the new keymap hwdb supports.

In otherwords, upgrade is necessary if you plan on using the new multilib ebuilds in ~arch as the old udev ebuilds don't provide way of building both 32bit and 64bit libs at the same time. And to ensure keyboard/keymap keeps working.
Older than 206 is not compatible with current ~arch packages, the end.


Who told you that I am using 64-bit system?
It's there for nothing! ebuild must prove first whether it is 32 or 64 bit system to make any further conclusions!

There is nothing more stupid then to check whether I have 32-bit lib on 32 bit system!


You are right, there is a bit of redudancy with ABI_X86="32" on a 32bit system wrt checking the USE flag. That's minor annoyance in the path to the new multilib ebuilds which willl be moot once the new ebuilds go stable.
There is no reason to avoid upgrading from 197, 200, 204, or whatever to 206 either so it's really non issue anyways. The upgrade is trivial.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 9:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ssuominen wrote:

There could be multiple reasons as to why it's pulling in sys-apps/systemd instead of sys-fs/udev, like having some GNOME packages installed, or by mistakenly masking newer version of sys-fs/udev, ...
Use more verbose output like you'd get from 'emerge -pvDNut world' where the -t is important flag, will show the dependency tree.
You can also mask sys-apps/systemd in /etc/portage/package.mask, that usually helps to trigger different (likely more clear) output.


Both virtual and sys-fs udev are masked by myself with version >= 206, nevertheless nothing!!! prevents virtual/udev-206 to get into dependence! Why there should be any difference with systemd?

It won't build - yes! but it will go into dependence and generate an error instead of not allowing me to upgrade certain packages which might depend on masked version. And that will be and must be the correct solution.
Currently the behaviour of portage is wrong.
Only if I would ask for certain package version and it depends on masked packages it should generate error, otherwise not.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 9:11 pm    Post subject: Re: Why am I forced to install systemd???? Reply with quote

lefsha wrote:
Any indication about alternative

Evolution 3.6.4 works fine with eudev 1.1

Alternatives to Evolution are e.g. Thunderbird and claws-mail.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 1:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm another non-systemd user, also a non-gnome user.

However I do use some gnome applications, notably gnucash and gthumb. So far nothing has tried to force me to systemd, though I'm still using stable versions of everything. Assuming I'm not trying to load the full gnome desktop, will I be able to continue running this way? --- Or is it time to start figuring out how to get close to a decade's worth of financial data out of gnucash?

I don't mind the basic idea of systemd, in fact I think it's a really good one, and tried systemd over a year ago. Back then it wasn't ready. I object to the monolithic nature of its packaging and its propensity to glom and replace existing functions. I also object to it's opaque appearance - it either "just works (TM)" or you have to practically become a developer - no casual hacking.

If someone would walk into the systemd mess and make it more accessible I could see becoming an enthusiastic user.

By the way, on one of my systems:
Quote:
# ACCEPT_KEYWORDS="~amd64" emerge -ptv udev openrc

These are the packages that would be merged, in reverse order:

Calculating dependencies... done!
[nomerge ] sys-power/powertop-1.13 USE="unicode"
[nomerge ] sys-apps/pciutils-3.2.0 USE="kmod -static-libs -zlib"
[ebuild U ] sys-apps/hwids-20130717-r1 [20130329] USE="udev" 1,515 kB
[ebuild U ] virtual/udev-206-r2 [200] USE="gudev introspection kmod (-selinux) -static-libs (-hwdb%*) (-keymap%*)" ABI_X86="(64%*) -32% (-x32)" 0 kB
[ebuild U ] sys-fs/udev-206-r3 [204] USE="acl firmware-loader gudev introspection kmod openrc -doc (-selinux) -static-libs (-hwdb%*) (-keymap%*)" ABI_X86="(64%*) -32% (-x32)" 2,288 kB
[nomerge ] sys-apps/openrc-0.12 [0.11.8] USE="ncurses netifrc%* pam unicode -debug -newnet (-prefix) (-selinux) -static-libs -tools%"
[ebuild N ] net-misc/netifrc-0.1 52 kB
[nomerge ] net-misc/netifrc-0.1
[blocks b ] <sys-apps/openrc-0.12 ("<sys-apps/openrc-0.12" is blocking sys-apps/kmod-15, net-misc/netifrc-0.1)
[ebuild U ] sys-apps/openrc-0.12 [0.11.8] USE="ncurses netifrc%* pam unicode -debug -newnet (-prefix) (-selinux) -static-libs -tools%" 129 kB
[nomerge ] sys-apps/x86info-1.30
[nomerge ] sys-apps/pciutils-3.2.0 USE="kmod -static-libs -zlib"
[ebuild U ] sys-apps/kmod-15 [13-r1] USE="lzma openrc%* tools zlib -debug -doc -static-libs" 1,420 kB

Total: 6 packages (5 upgrades, 1 new), Size of downloads: 5,402 kB
Conflict: 2 blocks

* IMPORTANT: 4 news items need reading for repository 'gentoo'.
* Use eselect news to read news items.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 1:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

depontius wrote:
gnucash

Gnucash is a gtk2 app, and thus safely legacy - in maintenance mode, not active development. No need to be paranoid.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 12:55 pm    Post subject: Re: Why am I forced to install systemd???? Reply with quote

PaulBredbury wrote:
Alternatives to Evolution are e.g. Thunderbird and claws-mail.


By alternative I mean analogue UDEV not something else. I don't see installation guide about eudev or mdev or what ever telling me, that I will have no problem with dependences if installing alternative.

As a mail client I'm using claws for years. I don't like it's behaviour with presentation of emails in html and stupid options on the right panel and necessity to click each time on the mail to see it's body appears, but! it's the best desktop email client without idiotic dependences like evolution. If they only could copy gmail behaviour without it's conversation ideology...

P.S. I have managed to avoid systemd installation, although every program which is working with systemd still installing files into /usr/lib/systemd folder. But my main concern about redundant hard dependences in portage remains.

My system is working now just fine. No problems or what so ever. Because I have changed ebuilds by hands.
I am fine if I have to do so with packages in overlay. Those are not under control by anyone, but why to modify standard gentoo ebuilds?

Just for experiment I am doing sync and will see the difference:

Code:
[nomerge       ]  sys-apps/portage-2.2.1  USE="(ipc) python2 -build -doc -epydoc (-pypy2_0) -python3 (-selinux) -xattr" LINGUAS="-ru" PYTHON_TARGETS="python2_7 -pypy1_9 -pypy2_0 -python2_6 -python3_1 -python3_2 -python3_3 (-python3_4)"
[ebuild  N     ]   sys-apps/sandbox-2.6-r1  USE="(-multilib)" 358 kB


I can't emerge sandbox by unknown reason. It fails while compiling. But I don't need it. So have manually remove it from portage dependences. If I remember correctly many years ago there was an USE flag - sandbox, but now it's hard depences without any reason. Or Gentoo is not about choice anymore?


Code:

[nomerge       ]  x11-libs/libnotify-0.7.5-r1  USE="-doc -introspection {-test}"
[ebuild  N     ]   virtual/notification-daemon-0::mate-overlay  USE="-gnome" 0 kB
[ebuild  N     ]    x11-misc/notification-daemon-0.5.0  0 kB


Both these packages are also failing during compilation. But as I have realized they are not! real dependences
for libnotify, which I also do not need, but MATE is pushing it to be built. Because I don't have a pation to change all ebuilds I left libnotify and removed other two from dependences. And? - Yes, everything just works...

Som very clever guy has decided, that I can't live without debug USE flag by default and:

Code:
(dev-qt/qtgui-4.8.5::gentoo, installed) pulled in by
    dev-qt/qtgui:4[accessibility,dbus(+)] required by (net-im/skype-4.2.0.11-r1::gentoo, installed)

  (dev-qt/qtgui-4.8.5::gentoo, ebuild scheduled for merge) pulled in by
    ~dev-qt/qtgui-4.8.5[accessibility=,aqua=,debug=] required by (dev-qt/qtsvg-4.8.5::gentoo, installed)
    ~dev-qt/qtgui-4.8.5[accessibility=,aqua=,debug=,qt3support=] required by (dev-qt/qtdeclarative-4.8.5::gentoo, installed)


That is what we have. I can't follow why do I need debug, therefore I have also put under question mark
accessibility and aqua. By my best will it doesn't sound like something which would kill my installation.
qt3support is not different here. Why using USE flags if we just can make them hard and push user to have it whether he wants, requires or not. My suggestion - make binary package call it ArchLinux2 and remove systemd from the tree
to make some competition to ArchLinux1. Otherwise there is less ans less point to use Gentoo.

I think most people don't understand that >50% of packages installed on their system they do not need and they do not use.

Thx.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 3:01 pm    Post subject: Re: Why am I forced to install systemd???? Reply with quote

lefsha wrote:
My system is working now just fine. No problems or what so ever. Because I have changed ebuilds by hands.
[...]
I can't emerge sandbox by unknown reason
[...]
Both these packages are also failing during compilation

You prove by yourself that you have a rather broken system. Thankfully, the portage developers are not so stupid to drop dependencies which are needed. There are very few dependencies which are really unneeded. Also it is in some rare cases unfortunate that ebuilds install a fully working package (with all its dependencies) if they are only pulled in because one particular library/header file/other special casee from them is needed for another package, so in theory one could do slightly more finetuning. However, doing this for a whole distribution needs very much manpower and knowledge of details and interplay of packages. If you have a particular case which the developers are not willing to spend time supporting you can still keep it in your overlay. However, you should then have the required knowledge to do this on your own risk without randomly breaking your system.
Quote:
Som very clever guy has decided, that I can't live without debug USE flag by default and:
Code:
[...]
    ~dev-qt/qtgui-4.8.5[accessibility=,aqua=,debug=] required by (dev-qt/qtsvg-4.8.5::gentoo, installed)
    ~dev-qt/qtgui-4.8.5[accessibility=,aqua=,debug=,qt3support=] required by (dev-qt/qtdeclarative-4.8.5::gentoo, installed)

You have no idea what this output (e.g. the = signs) means, do you?
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 5:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

as a matter of fact, systemd is not bad at all. i made
the smoothest switch ever to systemd. so far, it suits me better.
i am not using Gnome. i wouldn't just throw out systemd for hearsay.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 5:56 pm    Post subject: Re: Why am I forced to install systemd???? Reply with quote

lefsha wrote:
Som very clever guy has decided, that I can't live without debug USE flag by default and:

RTFM.
man 5 ebuild:

              Conditional USE Dependencies

                     Compact Form   Equivalent Expanded Form
                     ─────────────────────────────────────────────────────
                     foo[bar?]      bar? ( foo[bar] ) !bar? ( foo )
                     foo[!bar?]     bar? ( foo ) !bar? ( foo[-bar] )
                     foo[bar=]      bar? ( foo[bar] ) !bar? ( foo[-bar] )
                     foo[!bar=]     bar? ( foo[-bar] ) !bar? ( foo[bar] )
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lefsha
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 9:25 pm    Post subject: Re: Why am I forced to install systemd???? Reply with quote

mv wrote:
You prove by yourself that you have a rather broken system.


How can you see, that I have something broken if it works well?
If it is broken, then what is exactly? - I see nothing.

Yes I can't compile some packages I don't need. For example x11-misc/notification-daemon-0.5.0.
This one is broken and doesn't work for others too. Just check this forum.
The solution was to use x11-misc/notification-daemon-0.7.6 which is not possible for me,
because I do not want install gtk3 which it depends on.

And frankly speaking I can compile firefox, openoffice, opencascade without any issues and some one telling
me my system is broken? - you are kidding.

I agree about "debug" USE flag. That was "accessibility" which I had to remove from ebuild.
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lefsha
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 9:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tranquilcool wrote:
as a matter of fact, systemd is not bad at all. i made
the smoothest switch ever to systemd. so far, it suits me better.
i am not using Gnome. i wouldn't just throw out systemd for hearsay.


If I would like systemd I would keep my Arch Installation. There is no point to use Gentoo
for me then.

IMHO systemd is perfect and works relatively well, BUT it don't give you a chance to
do what you want to do. It push you to start service you don't need and to avoid it rather
impossible (logging) or need stupid tricks like to avoid mounting /tmp to RAM.

That is what I hate in systemd, windows ot what ever system which push me to do
thing I don't want and decide for me anything.

If not that, I would love systemd. As already mentioned it works perfect if it does
exactly what you want OR you don't care what it does.
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mv
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2013 5:36 am    Post subject: Re: Why am I forced to install systemd???? Reply with quote

lefsha wrote:
How can you see, that I have something broken if it works well?

You cannot compile at least two packages, one being the rather trivial sandbox.
Things might work without sandbox, but the slightest bug in some build system might damage your system. Your inability to compile sandbox might even come from such a bug.
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mv
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2013 5:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

lefsha wrote:
It push you to start service you don't need and to avoid it rather
impossible (logging) or need stupid tricks like to avoid mounting /tmp to RAM.

Although systemd is conceptionally broken in many ways and has a horrible implementation - I would never use it - it is not true that you have to start services you do not need or to use tricks to avoid mounting /tmp to RAM. You can enable/disable every service which you want/do not want, and e.g. mounting /tmp to RAM is just such a service which can be disabled in the regular way without any "tricks".
What is really broken with systemd is the crazyness to run daemons for every small task permanently, the fact that it is orthogonal to existing system tools - doing things like mounting, setting of time and locales in its own broken way - and of course the logging insanity. Also essential things like networking are not reasonable implemented (the user-provided netctl does not work properly), so it is not a complete system and what it does, does it in a bad or broken way. However, the two points you mentioned above are not part of the brokennes IMHO.
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