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John-Boy
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 7:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sikpuppy wrote:
John-Boy wrote:
BoneKracker wrote:
Don't bring up constitutions. They don't have one, and they still have a king.


England ? Not written per se - we do have case law and the rolls.

Plus, unfortunately, we have a parasit - I mean Queen - unless he's been in drag :wink:
I think we were talking about Japan. But I am never sure.


Aha- got ya. Thanks.
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Bones McCracker
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 8:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sikpuppy wrote:
John-Boy wrote:
BoneKracker wrote:
Don't bring up constitutions. They don't have one, and they still have a king.


England ? Not written per se - we do have case law and the rolls.

Plus, unfortunately, we have a parasit - I mean Queen - unless he's been in drag :wink:
I think we were talking about Japan. But I am never sure.

No, they have a constitution: we wrote it for them. I was using "king" in a gender-neutral sense. Besides, England will have an actual king again pretty soon; I think people are starting to get on the old bird's case (who I think is just trying to spare us all King Charles by hoping maybe he'll die first).
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John-Boy
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 8:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
Besides, England will have an actual king again pretty soon.


Unfortunately that is the case. Good job we can afford them
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valerios
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 7:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In Greece 50% of youth are unemployed. And in general it's 30%.

We're already doomed.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 9:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John-Boy wrote:
juniper wrote:
John-Boy wrote:
juniper wrote:
japan has close to no immigration.


Don't make the situation here any better, does it now.


japan will be fucked in about 30 years. without immigration no one will pay for your seniors bus pass.


So let me get this straight, you believe that there are way more employment opportunities in this country than
at present are available, we need immigration to successfully tap into this hidden reserve, despite having
rather large domestic unemployment figures.

You also believe that 90% GDP debt is not that high and could be worse and when questioned about this, attempt
to level a comparison with Japan, a country that is acknowledge to have the worst debt ratio going and say
'look it could be worse, we could be like Japan !'.


90% isn't great. it could be worse.

I mentioned japan because they have huge debt AND they have no immigration.

So, let me get this straight. You connect high debt with immigration with no evidence?
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 2:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

John-Boy wrote:
juniper wrote:
John-Boy wrote:
juniper wrote:
japan has close to no immigration.


Don't make the situation here any better, does it now.


japan will be fucked in about 30 years. without immigration no one will pay for your seniors bus pass.


So let me get this straight, you believe that there are way more employment opportunities in this country than
at present are available, we need immigration to successfully tap into this hidden reserve, despite having
rather large domestic unemployment figures.


In a sense he is right. We have a market with an unlimited amount of potential work to be done. But only a finite amount of that potential work is productive enough, i.e., worth actually paying someone a first world wage to do.

Immigrant labour is often used as an excuse for cheaper labour. Cheaper labour makes more of this potential work actually economically viable and doable, from a limited economic sense which is clearly visible from your standard S/D chart.

What that chart doesn't show is the whole picture. When you reduce the purchasing power of a large number of workers you're asking for a recession. As if we hadn't already had enough of that sort in Europe over the last five years. Germans might've missed it since their economic octopus suction cup system (called the euro) sucks money out of the rim countries like South Europe and shoves it into Scrooge McGerman's money bins and "riskless" bunds bonds in Germany.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 2:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You mean it's not just that Germany is a better country run by better people, like energyman76b told me?
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 3:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
You mean it's not just that Germany is a better country run by better people, like energyman76b told me?


No, our German friend is absolutely right. You just need to look at it from the right angle and squint a little. Germany's main export to Southern Europe isn't cars or machinery, it's Misery. It's main import from those countries is their money. Plus the money other countries bailed them out with. And also the second bailout package money.

This is so clever that it must have been created by someone with superior intelligence and generally better. Which makes energyman76b's explanation factually correct.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 3:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

:lol:
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 4:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

juniper wrote:
You connect high debt with immigration with no evidence?


Haven't said anything about debt, you're the one attempting to draw a link.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 4:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

arttuv wrote:
What that chart doesn't show is the whole picture. When you reduce the purchasing power of a large number of workers you're asking for a recession. As if we hadn't already had enough of that sort in Europe over the last five years. Germans might've missed it since their economic octopus suction cup system (called the euro) sucks money out of the rim countries like South Europe and shoves it into Scrooge McGerman's money bins and "riskless" bunds bonds in Germany.


Arguments about immigration to one side - originally the discussion revolved around using
domestic unemployed first, or at least as much as you can effectively mine, before
looking at quotas

McGruff disagreed and then vanished - Juniper seems to be attempting to dilute the original
discussion into the safer waters of nationalism and now Japanese national debt.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 9:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

energyman76b wrote:
Muso wrote:
UK & France both have large numbers of Muslim immigrants with layabout kids that prefer to live off the dole while thinking about Jihad.


just like our turks....


:roll:
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 10:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

John-Boy wrote:

Arguments about immigration to one side - originally the discussion revolved around using
domestic unemployed first, or at least as much as you can effectively mine, before
looking at quotas

McGruff disagreed and then vanished - Juniper seems to be attempting to dilute the original
discussion into the safer waters of nationalism and now Japanese national debt.


You brought up nationalism. You explicitly stated that domestic workers should get priority, repeatedly. I.e. british workers should get priority not because of merit but because of nationality. If you are a believer in the free market, and clearly you are not, then labour borders are just another in a long list of economic barriers put up by national govts.

Think what happens if all countries did what you propose. Simply put, labour will want to flow from one country to another, but be unable to. currently the demand for labour elsewhere is weaker than in britain and likely germany, causing labour to be drawn in. When the tables are reversed, britain will have a something to release the pressure as well.
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Well, every group has its nutjobs, and the Second Amendment crowd is no exception.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 10:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"When the tables are reversed." :lol: :roll:

The only time British people ever go to work in Asia, Africa, the Middle East, etc., it's to exploit or colonize something. The tables are never going to be reversed, at least not in the next 50 years or so.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 10:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
"When the tables are reversed." :lol: :roll:

The only time British people ever go to work in Asia, Africa, the Middle East, etc., it's to exploit or colonize something. The tables are never going to be reversed, at least not in the next 50 years or so.
i was thinking more locally, i.e. europe.

Asia is already starting to demand western labour. eg managers.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 4:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

juniper wrote:
...


No - I said unemployed, let's try this experiment :

juniper wrote:
You brought up nationalism. You explicitly stated that domestic unemployed should get priority ..


There is nothing nationalistic about seeking to reduce domestic levels of unemployment, before looking at quotas.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 7:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John-Boy wrote:
juniper wrote:
...


No - I said unemployed, let's try this experiment :

juniper wrote:
You brought up nationalism. You explicitly stated that domestic unemployed should get priority ..


There is nothing nationalistic about seeking to reduce domestic levels of unemployment, before looking at quotas.


that might work in the short term. but a free market will work in the long.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

arttuv wrote:
BoneKracker wrote:
You mean it's not just that Germany is a better country run by better people, like energyman76b told me?


No, our German friend is absolutely right. You just need to look at it from the right angle and squint a little. Germany's main export to Southern Europe isn't cars or machinery, it's Misery. It's main import from those countries is their money. Plus the money other countries bailed them out with. And also the second bailout package money.

This is so clever that it must have been created by someone with superior intelligence and generally better. Which makes energyman76b's explanation factually correct.


so let me get this straight: Germany is pumping billions into Southern Europe countries every fucking year via EU programs like EFRE or ESF - and you are complaining?

Hm.. how about - you know, start producing something people actually want to buy, besides olive oil, or... get off your lazy asses and start working? Just a hint.

Besides - Greece even cooked its books and LIED to get into the Euro. Some scam to rip Germany off. No doubt.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2013 5:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

juniper wrote:
that might work in the short term. but a free market will work in the long.


Not saying anything about free market either, policy on immigration should take into account
levels of domestic employment.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2013 5:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

energyman76b wrote:
LIED to get into the Euro. Some scam to rip Germany off. No doubt.


It ain't just Germany that's getting the rough end of the stick, it's anybody tied to Greece.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2013 6:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nah, the people tied to Greece are getting the shitty end of the stick.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2013 9:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

John-Boy wrote:
juniper wrote:
that might work in the short term. but a free market will work in the long.


Not saying anything about free market either, policy on immigration should take into account
levels of domestic employment.


nationalism and protectionism precisely when the economy could do without will be harmful.

if brits can't compete for the jobs, so be it (that goes for the Londoners in London, spaniards in spain and germans in germany). How far does this localism go? London jobs for Londoners?
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2013 9:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think it's less about jobs and more about culture. There is a rate of immigration that exceeds the capacity of a society to helpfully integrate people. We've seen it happen numerous times here in the U.S. You end up with backlash, and the immigrants end up driven into enclaves and organized crime.

Mark my words: the so-called "Morroccan" boys picking pockets and being a nuisance to the police today in the Netherlands (just to pick one example) are going to be the country's mafia of tomorrow. The same will be true throughout Europe. This holds the rest of them back for decades, maybe a century, through the prejudice and stereotypes it creates.

Look at the U.S. The big wave if Irish immigration was 150 years ago, but even today, the stereotype is alcohilism, thuggery, corrupt cops, and Catholic priests. The big Italian wave was between 1890 and 1910, yet we're still watching The Sopranos and Jersey Shore (as examples of the prevalence of the stereotypes). Both the Irish and Italians have dominated U.S. organized crime for decades. These are not healthy dynamics from any perspective, including social and economic).
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2013 4:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
I think it's less about jobs and more about culture. There is a rate of immigration that exceeds the capacity of a society to helpfully integrate people. We've seen it happen numerous times here in the U.S. You end up with backlash, and the immigrants end up driven into enclaves and organized crime.

Mark my words: the so-called "Morroccan" boys picking pockets and being a nuisance to the police today in the Netherlands (just to pick one example) are going to be the country's mafia of tomorrow. The same will be true throughout Europe. This holds the rest of them back for decades, maybe a century, through the prejudice and stereotypes it creates.

Look at the U.S. The big wave if Irish immigration was 150 years ago, but even today, the stereotype is alcohilism, thuggery, corrupt cops, and Catholic priests. The big Italian wave was between 1890 and 1910, yet we're still watching The Sopranos and Jersey Shore (as examples of the prevalence of the stereotypes). Both the Irish and Italians have dominated U.S. organized crime for decades. These are not healthy dynamics from any perspective, including social and economic).


especially if you keep in mind that half of the mafia were jews....
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Libertardian denial of reality is wholly unimpressive and unconvincing, and simply serves to demonstrate what a bunch of delusional fools they all are.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2013 5:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

juniper wrote:
nationalism and protectionism


There you go again, it ain't either.
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