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flysideways
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PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 8:04 pm    Post subject: Bloodless Assertion of EU Federal Supremacy Reply with quote

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/10041817/Federal-Europe-will-be-a-reality-in-a-few-years-says-Jose-Manuel-Barroso.html
It begins like this.

Will it stay bloodless??

Whatever it was about, one thing reinforced by the US Civil War was the supremacy of the Federal Government over the individual States.

I remember reading in the failed EU Constitution where the the individual States could leave, but will it really work that way?
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pjp
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PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 11:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It'll be interesting to see if any have the wherewithal to exit.
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PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 11:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I hope to live long enough to give huge rations of shit to all the Europeans who spent years laughing at Americans who object to the growing power of our Federal government. They don't realize their own national governments are analogous to our state governments, and go around mocking, "ZomG teh Gubbement is taking my Freedumb!" It will be entertaining to watch their reaction when the EU starts taking the bulk of their tax payments and centrally disbursing everything, standardizing 80% of the important laws across all the EU nations, and taking control of their military forces. "Zomg!" :lol:
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PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 12:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
I hope to live long enough to give huge rations of shit to all the Europeans who spent years laughing at Americans who object to the growing power of our Federal government. They don't realize their own national governments are analogous to our state governments, and go around mocking, "ZomG teh Gubbement is taking my Freedumb!" It will be entertaining to watch their reaction when the EU starts taking the bulk of their tax payments and centrally disbursing everything, standardizing 80% of the important laws across all the EU nations, and taking control of their military forces. "Zomg!" :lol:


hey. I don't like it.

the criticism of americans (at least from me) is that you seem to have your priorities wrong with respect to the federal govt.
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Last edited by juniper on Wed May 08, 2013 12:44 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 12:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well that has decided which way I am voting when the referendum comes
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PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 12:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
I hope to live long enough to give huge rations of shit to all the Europeans who spent years laughing at Americans who object to the growing power of our Federal government. They don't realize their own national governments are analogous to our state governments, and go around mocking, "ZomG teh Gubbement is taking my Freedumb!" It will be entertaining to watch their reaction when the EU starts taking the bulk of their tax payments and centrally disbursing everything, standardizing 80% of the important laws across all the EU nations, and taking control of their military forces. "Zomg!" :lol:

starts? the EU keeps trying to find new ways to take money from the UK between raiding pensions or some other backally method....
I can't comment on other people from the EU, but at least in the UK the analogy between states&countries and federal gov'n & European Federal Union is clear...

You are also forgetting one VERY VERY scary concept in all this... The president. We as citizens of the EU do NOT vote for the president we vote for a number of seats out of ~750 based upon the countries size... THESE MEP's then join/union with EU-wide parliamentary alignments so a labour MEP could align with an EU political group which may not fully align with the labours view of the EU...

There is also too much history, blood shed between different countries and no common language making presidential candidates elected by the masses as per a true Federal union almost impossible
finding analogies between the US senate and the EU parliamentary assembly is easy, its the concept of an overall president which is daunting, an unelected president.
An EFU will not be a democratic Federation, it will be what Britains died to stop being formed. The ECSC was formed to such that the concept of war was an economic impossibility. The weapons have changed but the conflict & desires havn't

Shame, the reasoning behind the EEC was sound.
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energyman76b
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PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 3:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

of course the language of the EU should be the one with the most native speakers.
and the most power should go to the country with the strongest economy.
and those who pay the most netto, should have the most to say.
and countries who get more money then they pay should have no say at all.
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PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 6:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
It will be entertaining to watch their reaction when the EU starts taking the bulk of their tax payments and centrally disbursing everything, standardizing 80% of the important laws across all the EU nations, and taking control of their military forces. "Zomg!" :lol:


Start?
In sweden, over two thirds of the money you create ends up in government hands. Say 5 people have IT consulting company, say you're best in town at test automation or whatever. You work hard to maintain reputation as good and effective consultants, and you compete with all others for contracts. You land a contract, work your ass off and send an invoice to the customer. Customer pays and the money lands on the company's bank account.

The company has to pay about 30% of that to the government as "employers fees". Then you sit down and divide what portion should the individual have, and what should stay in the company, for buffer, bills, etc. The person whos work was invoiced gets the paycheck. From that you pay income tax, 30% or more, depending on the municipality and income bracket. The rest lands on your personal bank account.

Every time you buy something, food, clothes, whatever, you pay 25% vat (moms). Unless you are buying "contraband" like gasoline, tobacco, alcohol, or whatever is taxed higher by the government under one pretense or the other.

Add it all up, the result is that government is taking bigger share than yourself, and it had no part in making it happen. You're just a tax slave, battery in the matrix. :)

And it's been that way for ages. The only thing missing was the awareness that if you think that's normal, then it is due to indoctrination, not logic.
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PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 11:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

juniper wrote:
the criticism of americans (at least from me) is that you seem to have your priorities wrong with respect to the federal govt.
Which is amusing, since the Democrat party has been trying to move us toward being more European.
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PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2013 2:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

energyman76b wrote:
of course the language of the EU should be the one with the most native speakers.
and the most power should go to the country with the strongest economy.
and those who pay the most netto, should have the most to say.
and countries who get more money then they pay should have no say at all.

We already had this very same pissing contest. Here's how we solved it. In the lower legislative house, you get representation proportional to your population (slaves counted as 1/3 a person, you could do something similar for Eastern Europeans). In the upper legislative house, each state got equal representation. The money part works the way you want it by virtue of permitting free speech (anybody is free to spend their money to convince voters whom they should vote for).

What to watch out for: Greeks bearing gifits. 'nuff said.
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PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2013 7:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

energyman76b wrote:
of course the language of the EU should be the one with the most native speakers.
and the most power should go to the country with the strongest economy.
and those who pay the most netto, should have the most to say.
and countries who get more money then they pay should have no say at all.

Not really about what language the EU shall use... That was tried before with Latin and another one which slips my mind. Right now within about 5min I can find out alot of info of any British mep, any pm and local council member any potential politician, especially their reported past. Its in English
Lets say some Greek politian was going for EU Pres and a Pres that was voted by all citizens not via the present unelected method. I will struggle to get info independent of domestic reporting
"Learn Greek" I hear you say and to that I would say "learn Welsh" as some Welsh politians history is only in Welsh... And thus an EU Democratic republic cannot work and if it is not Democratic I want nothing todo with it and those free Europeans shouldn't either.

Also the seats are per population not wealth as wealth would be a plutocracy again something that cannot be supported.
One country - one seat is only the way todo it for eu wide stuff. We need another house like the us, like uk and iirc like Germany.
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PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2013 7:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Esperanto? I think Germans should learn to share the beaches with other tourists.
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PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2013 8:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just love the way how the yanks are already screaming: The EU is coming!
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PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2013 3:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naib wrote:
44
Also the seats are per population not wealth as wealth would be a plutocracy again something that cannot be supported.
One country - one seat is only the way todo it for eu wide stuff. We need another house like the us, like uk and iirc like Germany.


that is anti-democratic. Why should a 80million population have less to say than one 1 million and one 10 million population?

Alo: native speakers.

English? in the EU? Not much.
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Libertardian denial of reality is wholly unimpressive and unconvincing, and simply serves to demonstrate what a bunch of delusional fools they all are.

Satan's got perfectly toned abs and rocks a c-cup.
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PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2013 3:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sikpuppy wrote:
Esperanto? I think Germans should learn to share the beaches with other tourists.


Esperanto is bullshit in its worst form (like all artificial languages). Romanocentric, culture destroying imperialism.

Languages are formed by the culture of their speakers. Brits have a lot of nautical influences. Danes sound drunk and Swedes pussy whipped. For example.
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AidanJT wrote:

Libertardian denial of reality is wholly unimpressive and unconvincing, and simply serves to demonstrate what a bunch of delusional fools they all are.

Satan's got perfectly toned abs and rocks a c-cup.
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PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2013 3:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

energyman76b wrote:
Naib wrote:
44
Also the seats are per population not wealth as wealth would be a plutocracy again something that cannot be supported.
One country - one seat is only the way todo it for eu wide stuff. We need another house like the us, like uk and iirc like Germany.


that is anti-democratic. Why should a 80million population have less to say than one 1 million and one 10 million population?

Alo: native speakers.

English? in the EU? Not much.
what we have isn't even close to Democratic and a federal EU would be even worse. Also reread what I said as well as what BK said. The Parliament as it stands is fine. We need another house with one seat per nation.
And whendid I say English? the fact there is soo many languages is EXACTLY why you will not have a democratically elected president of the EU and that is exactly why the the entire concept is undemocratic and EXACTLY what my family fought in europe to prevent
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PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2013 5:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

energyman76b wrote:
sikpuppy wrote:
Esperanto? I think Germans should learn to share the beaches with other tourists.


Esperanto is bullshit in its worst form (like all artificial languages). Romanocentric, culture destroying imperialism.

Languages are formed by the culture of their speakers. Brits have a lot of nautical influences. Danes sound drunk and Swedes pussy whipped. For example.

:lol:

And Arabs sound like they have a sister to sell you for a couple of camels.
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PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2013 5:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

energyman76b wrote:
a/ of course the language of the EU should be the one with the most native speakers.
b/ and the most power should go to the country with the strongest economy.
c/ and those who pay the most netto, should have the most to say.
d/ and countries who get more money then they pay should have no say at all.

All this makes sense but is not very coherent.
b/ c/ and d/ should logically drive a different condition about the language, that is :

The language of the EU should be the one of those who get the most valuable things to say!

Moyennant cette petite modification, je dois m'avouer tout à fait d'accord avec energyman76b et propose même que l'on commence ici et tout de suite!

BTW: On thing should logically happen from now on in this thread that is worth noting.
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PostPosted: Sat May 11, 2013 1:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

L'UE doit être proactive, rendant arabe de sa langue officielle.
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PostPosted: Sat May 11, 2013 10:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Learn Spanish!
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energyman76b
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PostPosted: Sat May 11, 2013 10:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
energyman76b wrote:
sikpuppy wrote:
Esperanto? I think Germans should learn to share the beaches with other tourists.


Esperanto is bullshit in its worst form (like all artificial languages). Romanocentric, culture destroying imperialism.

Languages are formed by the culture of their speakers. Brits have a lot of nautical influences. Danes sound drunk and Swedes pussy whipped. For example.

:lol:

And Arabs sound like they have a sister to sell you for a couple of camels.


USAmerican english is filled with military slang.
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AidanJT wrote:

Libertardian denial of reality is wholly unimpressive and unconvincing, and simply serves to demonstrate what a bunch of delusional fools they all are.

Satan's got perfectly toned abs and rocks a c-cup.
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PostPosted: Sat May 11, 2013 11:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

US American English is a rich language. Just think about nucular and prezidente.
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PostPosted: Sat May 11, 2013 1:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naib wrote:
Well that has decided which way I am voting when the referendum comes


Assuming that we actually ever get one
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PostPosted: Sat May 11, 2013 2:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John-Boy wrote:
Naib wrote:
Well that has decided which way I am voting when the referendum comes


Assuming that we actually ever get one


Ahah you may get one, but like french that votes no when they were asked, our beloved President Sarkozi bypass our answer and apply it even when we have reject it.

That's the democracy in EU today ; and i'm not sure it's better in USA too, US president aren't elect by people but by that so-call "grand electeur" (translation please?) instead.
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PostPosted: Sat May 11, 2013 8:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

U.S. Presidents are elected by stampeding herds of sheep, driven in one direction or another by their own greed and by fear-mongering asshole propagandists.
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