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notageek
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 4:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I thought he said Proletariat.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 4:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcgruff wrote:
He'll have to buy me dinner first.

:lol:
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 4:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcgruff wrote:
Naib wrote:
mcgruff wrote:
Naib wrote:
you have convinently never answered what this perpetual question


So, if I haven't answered, you are correct but, if I have answered, you're comment above would be wrong? Is that right?

misrepresenting what was stated...
You have not answered does not imply I am correct. It however does bring into question the level of understanding and thus the scope in which your viewpoint is valid.


I mean that you claimed I didn't respond to some kind of question about the unions. If that is true, you are correct. However, if I did in fact respond, you are talking out your ass again. (Hint: I did respond and you are talking out your ass. Again. How do you seriously expect to get away with that shit?)

The definition of stupidity is to keep doing the same thing and expecting a different outcome. For starters, you don't know if I was around at the time of Thatcher or not because I didn't say. I have said that I'm half-Scottish, and I've mentioned before that I have lived in Glasgow for a period. Going solely by what you know, there's actually a very good chance that I do have direct experience of communities which suffered under Thatcher, or that I might even be a member of some of them. Not too smart, is it? I have my reasons for not giving out personal information and you'll just have to respect that.

It's doubly asinine in that, at a stroke, you have just destroyed over 99% of all human knowledge because miscellaneous experts and professors didn't happen to be there to see the Irish potato famine, the Siberian traps in full flow, or the Big Bang etc etc.
you are a walking posting hypocrite. There is a very simple reason why early on I asked a very simple and clear question with regards to general residence 30years ago and that was so an accusation you just threw wouldn't hold any weight.

You chose to not answer mine and others question, that's your choice BUT for a discussion to continue some clarity had to be sort. We couldn't assume you were resident any less than we could assume you were not. The probability you were not significantly increased when you showed zero understanding or experience with regards to the unions and other aspects of the time Thatcher was in power.
Stating you are half Scottish also means nothing with regards to residency. I am half american yet the longest I have ever stayed in America has been 2weeks.
Stating you lived in Glasgow (something you did not mention in this thread by the way... again highlighting your perpetual inconsistancy) also do not provide any infomation at to whether that was between 1979 and 1990. I was resident in Nottingham for some time. Does that help with determining whether I have any experience of the riots, gangs etc? especially since there is not time information in such a statement.

You are to blame for how this has progressed. Multiple opportunities by multiple people were provided with regards to residency and unions yet you chose to act like a fool in your responses

You have persistently shown that your opinion on this topic and your style of discussing are non value added
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 4:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naib wrote:
for a discussion to continue some clarity had to be sort.


Why? For discussion to continue all you had to do was... continue the discussion. That's not about me; that's about Thatcher's policies and how they were/are perceived by the people she governed.

You've had your say - at great length - now you're just trolling. Cut it out or I'll make a complaint.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 4:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcgruff wrote:
Naib wrote:
You chose to not answer mine and others question, that's your choice BUT for a discussion to continue some clarity had to be sort.


Why? For discussion to continue all you had to do was... continue the discussion. That's not about me; that's about Thatcher's policies and how they were/are perceived by the people she governed.

You've had your say - at great length - now you're just trolling. Cut it out or I'll make a complaint.


This response justshows you have-not been following this thread...
May I remind you one of the key points was to determine whether the "hatred" was an idiological adversion to her policies or down to 1hand experience of the fallout.
The only way to determinethis is via residence


and before you try a magic roundabout on this again. THE reason this is important is because the speckled reasoning for your hatred are inconsistent and inconsistency which is only justifiable *IF* there is an emotional contribution to this, ie via direct exposure to some of her harsher policies.
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Last edited by Naib on Fri Apr 12, 2013 4:50 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 4:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Noob wrote:
one of the key points was to determine whether the "hatred" was an idiological adversion to her policies or down to 1hand experience of the fallout.
The only way to determinethis is via residence


It is your obsession - one which you've also tried to pursue in other threads - but it is not a key point because...

IT'S NOT ABOUT ME IT'S ABOUT THATCHER'S POLICIES.

CAN I GET YOU ANOTHER BLANKET DEAR? HELLO?
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 4:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

just re-posting the edit
Quote:


and before you try a magic roundabout on this again. THE reason this is important is because the speckled reasoning for your hatred are inconsistent and inconsistency which is only justifiable *IF* there is an emotional contribution to this, ie via direct exposure to some of her harsher policies.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 4:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcgruff wrote:
Noob wrote:
one of the key points was to determine whether the "hatred" was an idiological adversion to her policies or down to 1hand experience of the fallout.
The only way to determinethis is via residence


It is your obsession - one which you've also tried to pursue in other threads - but it is not a key point because...

IT'S NOT ABOUT ME IT'S ABOUT THATCHER'S POLICIES.

CAN I GET YOU ANOTHER BLANKET DEAR? HELLO?

not my obsession, i am not the one with unjustifiable hatred.
So it is about her policies rather than exposure which makes redundant alot of your points as well as re-affirms your perpetual inconsistancy

It has taken 11 pages for you to state it is a leftist hatred of personal responsibility rather than exposure to some harsh policy

Which means you must hate Blair since new labour in 97 modeled itself after a center right model from Thatcher (not major) rather than their traditional left
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 2:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark Steel: You can't just shut us up now that Margaret Thatcher's dead

Quote:
this week Thatcher fans have been unrestrained in their abuse for anyone not displaying “compassion”. Maybe we should give them the benefit of the doubt and accept they’ve just discovered it. They’re all going to the doctors saying: “I’ve been getting this strange sort of caring feeling towards someone who isn’t me. Do I need antibiotics?” If they’re puzzled as to why there isn’t universal sadness this week, maybe they should visit Corby. It’s a town that was built in the 1930s, entirely round a steelworks, and thousands of unemployed Scots moved there for the work. As a result its people still have a strong Scottish accent, even though it’s in Northamptonshire.

But in 1980 Margaret Thatcher’s government shut down most of the steel industry, as part of her plan to break the unions, and the effect on Corby was like someone taking control of the Lake District and concreting in the lakes.

I was there to record a radio show about the town, and met Don and Irene, both in their seventies, at the Grampian Club. Don’s father had walked to Corby from Larkhall, near Glasgow, in 1932. I mentioned the steel strike and plant closure to Don, but he gestured as if it had somehow passed him by. It would have to be mentioned in the show, so I tried to find someone in the town with a story, an anecdote, something. But no one wanted to say a thing about it. During the recording, I asked if anyone had a story to tell from those days, but no one did, until it felt as if the whole audience collectively passed a motion that went: “I think you’d best move on to another subject, Mark.”

Afterwards in the bar, Irene told me: “We weren’t being rude, love, when we didn’t have a lot to say about the closure. But it wasn’t an easy time. Don marched from Corby to London with a banner. It made him angry about everything, we split up for a year because it was too much to live with. But we were lucky, two of our closest friends committed suicide in the months after the closure. So people would rather forget about those times really. But apart from that we really enjoyed the show.”
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 6:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcgruff wrote:
Mark Steel: You can't just shut us up now that Margaret Thatcher's dead

I think Mark Steel can be funny, but he is the most left wing comedian in the UK. So although I may agree with many things he says, he is a communist at heart and I can't take him too seriously because of that. Just too extreme for me.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 7:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

He is also conveniently failing to mention some key things
Uk coal and steel production (while uk steel was once the world best) was in major decline (partly due to overseas outperforming by a significant amount).
It is quite accepted that if the coal and steel plants were not closed they would have been closed anyway... So that's a moot point

Likewise the unions had ruined what was left
http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-22079683

http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-22076886
million under Callaghan.

In truth, Britain in the 1980s was always facing an immensely painful transition, partly because so many difficult decisions had been postponed for so long, but also because the stark reality of globalisation meant that major industries - notably carmaking, shipbuilding and coal-mining - were doomed even before she took power.

As a strident and often abrasive woman, Thatcher became the convenient scapegoat. But though her shock therapy never produced the nationwide renaissance for which she had hoped, she did not deserve all the blame.





Poll tax is 100% her doing especially since the council tax works
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 7:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

And the thing is, without Thatcher, most of the things for which she's hated- would have happened anyway.

It would only have been a matter of time before the IMF stepped in.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 11:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

John-Boy wrote:
And the thing is, without Thatcher, most of the things for which she's hated- would have happened anyway.

It would only have been a matter of time before the IMF stepped in.


as you know, I am a bleeding heart liberal, but the country was faced with close to 25% inflation. That's reprice goods frequently territory. That's spend money fast territory. I am not saying she had the best answer, but she and the country was faced with a pretty bad scenario.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 12:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

juniper wrote:
John-Boy wrote:
And the thing is, without Thatcher, most of the things for which she's hated- would have happened anyway.

It would only have been a matter of time before the IMF stepped in.


as you know, I am a bleeding heart liberal, but the country was faced with close to 25% inflation. That's reprice goods frequently territory. That's spend money fast territory. I am not saying she had the best answer, but she and the country was faced with a pretty bad scenario.


EXACTLY! this has been the constant message a few of us have kept trying to make throughout this thread...
The UK was in the shitter!!! between adapting to haemorrhaging of overseas territory (due to independence) and between facing aggressive manufacturing that was destroying UK manufacturing ... as it was something had to change. The mentality of "the state knows best" that got us through the war and the rebuild was all well and good, but has issues.

Something should have been done sooner likewise the status quo could not have been sustained much longer. The unions of the public companies were attacking the problem of a more global market completely wrong... rather than finding a way to actually compete on the global market they wanted their owner (the gov'n) to keep on paying them for less and less return...

The unions needed to be broken, even if it meant at the very least all strike action REQUIRES a ballot rather than the union committee making the decision on behalf of ALL union members.
Selling off some public companies also made sense and a number of them have prospered and have done wonderer (Rolls, BAE, BT...) some less so.. (Labours selling of British Rail was a disaster especially since competition on fixed tracks is ...)

Now Polltax and more specifically how Thatcher dealt with that sure tear her a new one, but note she actually stepped down due to that farce.
The complete mismanagement of the welfare dept yes put downto her, it was in shambles and very very infective!
BOTH these significantly hit the poor and with the the counter-attack on the miners the number of "poor" significantly increased in the north... (but the miners complications were significantly compounded by their crippling strike)


the rest... a reaction to a bad situation where something had to be done and due to the state of the country in the 70's whatever was going to be done was going to be painful
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 11:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ok. Now this is just crazy. Her funeral is costing us a cool 10 million pounds.

not cool.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 11:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

juniper wrote:
ok. Now this is just crazy. Her funeral is costing us a cool 10 million pounds.

not cool.

Yeah, think how much it's going to cost when the Queen croaks it. Not long now...
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 12:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

juniper wrote:
ok. Now this is just crazy. Her funeral is costing us a cool 10 million pounds.

not cool.

That is excessive but unforunetly the irresponsibility of a few are to blame. Have you seen the size of some of the barriers they are installing as well as all the additional security.
There were riots in the 90's due to her policies and how she responded (she was ousted as a result and rightly so). There were civil unrest last week once it was announced she had died. What do you think is going to potentially occur at her funeral?

Now whether she deserves such an honour? she was a great lady and polarised UK politics and broke some really old, stagnant, damaging ways in how the UK operated BUT to be honoured like this?
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 12:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The funeral has become a battle against revisionist attempts to redefine history as well as a battle for the future amidst an idiotic austerity drive from another Tory government.

Thatcher was a vicious demagogue and a failure as a national leader. The idea that she turned the country around in some way is just bonkers. It was all just smoke and mirrors:

Quote:
verseeing two recessions, average growth under Thatcher was around 2%. Yet the means by which she managed those apparently successful economic achievements require some examination. As Anthony Barnett argues, North Sea oil was critical:

“[It] came on stream bringing in an estimated £70 billion in revenues, it turned the UK into an OPEC country, an oil-exporter, and it overturned a chronic balance of payments problem rooted in the post-war period of clinging to imperial over-stretch.”

What happened to the proceeds from this unexpected and unearned windfall? Easy come, easy go – it was spent. Contrast this to both the Gulf states and the Nordic countries, who invested the proceeds of their natural resources to provide ongoing national income, and one of the defining features of Thatcherism is revealed. On top of the oil revenue binge, many vast state-owned industries were also sold off at knock-down prices. Highlighting her economic extremism, these included natural monopolies like gas, water and electricity; the toll booth economy - which would reach its zenith with Major's privatisation of the trains - was core Thatcherism. As Tom Mills notes, “These privatisations proved to be hugely profitable for the City of London and represented a massive transfer of wealth from public to private hands”. This wasn’t so much flogging the family silver as flogging the family home and renting it back – a process continued under Blair. Under the sweeping liberalisation she instigated, Britain now owns very little and we instead pay firms – often based overseas – for the privilege of using our own airports and water supplies, to name but two examples.

Another of Thatcher’s magic potions was 'home equity withdrawal' or remortgaging - drawing down the equity in the borrowers home for (mainly) consumption purposes – new cars, holidays, and so forth. Under the two Prime Ministers that preceded her, James Callaghan and Ted Heath, home equity withdrawal as a percentage of GDP growth was around 36% for both. Under Thatcher, this exploded to over £250bn across her premiership – a staggering 104% of GDP growth. To a significant extent, Thatcher grew the economy by unleashing easy credit, asset inflation (including house prices) and equity draw downs – ‘wealth creation’ indeed.

As an economic programme this is evidently unsustainable – oil runs out, assets run out (add the NHS to the list) and relying on rising house prices is, as the world has so painfully learnt, not exactly a model of financial prudence. The critical point is that without these asset sales and home equity it is questionable whether the economy would have been growing at all.


The challenge faced by the UK was to learn from Germany and create a successful, high-quality manufacturing base by investing in education, investing in industry and by attacking the class barriers which stood in the way of progress. Thatcher's neoliberal dogmas simply laid the groundwork for increasing inequality and long-term decline.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 1:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naib wrote:
juniper wrote:
ok. Now this is just crazy. Her funeral is costing us a cool 10 million pounds.

not cool.

That is excessive but unforunetly the irresponsibility of a few are to blame. Have you seen the size of some of the barriers they are installing as well as all the additional security.
There were riots in the 90's due to her policies and how she responded (she was ousted as a result and rightly so). There were civil unrest last week once it was announced she had died. What do you think is going to potentially occur at her funeral?

Now whether she deserves such an honour? she was a great lady and polarised UK politics and broke some really old, stagnant, damaging ways in how the UK operated BUT to be honoured like this?


No it isn't.

Most dead PMs (since Churchill) had small ceremonies. What justifies this pomp? She is a wartime PM?

Puhlheeze. For an austerity PM, this is a bit outrageous. The irony is not lost me.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 4:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

juniper wrote:
Puhlheeze. For an austerity PM, this is a bit outrageous. The irony is not lost me.


Have mixed feelings, as an iconic figure and for what she did (I feel that the good outweighed the bad) -
then a send off of that magnitude was warranted.

A whip-round of a handful of mourners and close friends would have probably raised that amount without
recourse to the public purse. The counter argument to that would be something along the lines of the rebate
from Europe which she won (and Labour threw away) - netted way more than the cost of the funeral.

Thatcher didn't want a state funeral either, I believe she cited cost.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 5:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What exactly do you imagine she did that warranted a Churchill-style funeral?
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 6:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcgruff wrote:
What exactly do you imagine she did that warranted a Churchill-style funeral?
piss you off for starters
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