Gentoo Forums
Gentoo Forums
Gentoo Forums
Quick Search: in
[rant] ThinkPad that I used to know :(
View unanswered posts
View posts from last 24 hours

Goto page 1, 2  Next  
Reply to topic    Gentoo Forums Forum Index Off the Wall
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
pjp
Administrator
Administrator


Joined: 16 Apr 2002
Posts: 16090
Location: Colorado

PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2013 2:59 am    Post subject: [rant] ThinkPad that I used to know :( Reply with quote

The inside story of Lenovo's ThinkPad redesign

Great. A whopping 100 people, mostly not ThinkPad users, ruined it for the rest of us.

Quote:
Just north of 100 people were intimately involved in refashioning the ThinkPad line for the modern era, with varying research studies taking place in the United States, China, Germany, France, India, Mexico, Russia, Brazil and Japan. [...] Only a small segment of each group were genuine ThinkPad loyalists -- the rest were early adopters of consumer technology, as well as those ardently opposed to selecting a ThinkPad as their primary machine. After all, one's biggest opponent often provides the most truthful revelations.
:facepalm: So to change the design, we ask those who don't use it. Yes, to improve the Porsche, I must ask those riding the bus!

Quote:
the company has abolished needless hooks, latches and bumpers, while also ridding the interior of the convoluted multi-button control mechanism. The widened trackpad now dominates the palm rest, and the protruding ThinkLight has been replaced with backlit keys.
I'm not entirely sure what the "convoluted" multi-button control mechanism was, but we now get a convoluted multi-button screw you if you use F keys solution. Oh, and those awesomely useful "mouse buttons" have been replaced with a gigantic useless piece of trackpad. A technology which has failed to function properly since INCEPTION!

Quote:
Making no bones about it, each agreed that the ThinkPad line isn't a guaranteed success just because it has been around for a score.
It's not a guaranteed success, so obviously we MUST CHANGE IT NOW!!!!

Quote:
"When we talk to people, they'll say things like, 'Well, as long as [a laptop] has around four to five hours of battery life, that's good enough -- I'm never away from an outlet for much longer than that.'" She did, however, admit that select responders vocalized "very high needs" and resorted to other methods in order to stay powered up for longer periods, but it was quite clear to me that we aren't yet living in a world where the majority of OEMs are feeling pressure to radically innovate on the battery life front.
Let's change stuff, but let's not do anything innovative! Yeah, that's the ticket!

Quote:
ThinkPad loyalists will almost certainly direct their attention to the new trackpad when first laying eyes on the T431s. Or, perhaps, they'll spot the notable (and very deliberate) omission of the physical buttons that have historically sat just beneath and above a far smaller tracking surface. According to Parrish, the overall concept was to "simplify the appearance of two pointing devices in ThinkPad notebook design and maximize touchpad area -- while optimizing it for interaction with Windows 8."
F YOU MICROSOFT AND WINDOWS 8. DIE.DIE.DIE.DIE!!!!

Quote:
the top row of Function keys now default to handling multimedia duties; old schoolers who still need to hammer on F5 for any given reason can use a thoughtfully included Fn lock feature.
If that's not a convoluted multi-button design, I don't know what is. I use function keys daily. I rarely use multimedia keys.

*sniff* I shall go lick my wounds and drown my sorrows (OK, Friday for the latter part).

Maybe a kickstarter project to fabricate a replacement shell / kbd / trackpoint & buttons.
_________________
lolgov. 'cause where we're going, you don't have civil liberties.

In Loving Memory
1787 - 2008
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
notageek
Tux's lil' helper
Tux's lil' helper


Joined: 05 Jun 2008
Posts: 107
Location: Bangalore, India

PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2013 4:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ha ha!

Now you come around. Get a Mac now.
_________________
What looks like a cat, flies like a bat, brays like a donkey, and plays like a monkey?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
pjp
Administrator
Administrator


Joined: 16 Apr 2002
Posts: 16090
Location: Colorado

PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2013 10:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Come around? The article and my rant are about changes. Why would I be so stupid as to buy a Mac⸮
_________________
lolgov. 'cause where we're going, you don't have civil liberties.

In Loving Memory
1787 - 2008
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
LoTeK
Apprentice
Apprentice


Joined: 26 Jul 2012
Posts: 270

PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2013 10:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

it's a shame that the real-thinkpads don't exist anymore!! :cry:

Quote:
Get a Mac now.

I thought it's against the forum guidelines to post dubious suggestions?! :roll:
_________________
"I want to see gamma rays! I want to hear X-rays! Do you see the absurdity of what I am? I can't even express these things properly because I have to conceptualize complex ideas in this stupid limiting spoken language!"
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
genstorm
Advocate
Advocate


Joined: 05 Apr 2007
Posts: 2350
Location: Austria

PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2013 10:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am deeply depressed right now. The X200s will have to serve quite a bit longer then.

Comments >> http://blog.lenovo.com/products/thinkpad-t431s-laptop-new-design
_________________
backend.cpp:92:2: warning: #warning TODO - this error message is about as useful as a cooling unit in the arctic
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
tylerwylie
Guru
Guru


Joined: 19 Sep 2004
Posts: 455
Location: /US/Illinois

PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2013 10:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
Come around? The article and my rant are about changes. Why would I be so stupid as to buy a Mac⸮
Because they're one of the last laptops available with a 16:10 aspect ratio screen?
_________________
BoneKracker wrote:
Lemme smang it girl
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
genstorm
Advocate
Advocate


Joined: 05 Apr 2007
Posts: 2350
Location: Austria

PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2013 10:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Still have a bizarre keyboard layout.
_________________
backend.cpp:92:2: warning: #warning TODO - this error message is about as useful as a cooling unit in the arctic
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
tylerwylie
Guru
Guru


Joined: 19 Sep 2004
Posts: 455
Location: /US/Illinois

PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2013 10:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

genstorm wrote:
Still have a bizarre keyboard layout.
I think I will buy a Mac before I buy a laptop with a 16:9 aspect ratio. Fuck those panel makers.
_________________
BoneKracker wrote:
Lemme smang it girl
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
pjp
Administrator
Administrator


Joined: 16 Apr 2002
Posts: 16090
Location: Colorado

PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2013 11:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tylerwylie wrote:
Because they're one of the last laptops available with a 16:10 aspect ratio screen?
Then I guess I have a few options before it comes to that.
_________________
lolgov. 'cause where we're going, you don't have civil liberties.

In Loving Memory
1787 - 2008
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
wswartzendruber
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 23 Mar 2004
Posts: 1217
Location: Jefferson, USA

PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 12:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

When Lenovo took over in 2005, people ran around saying the ThinkPad was doomed. The end result was the T60, which was more of a ThinkPad than any machine since the ThinkPad 600X.

So now they have a new design. They've updated it for the "modern era." I'm going to reserve judgment until I actually get my hands on one and use it.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
pjp
Administrator
Administrator


Joined: 16 Apr 2002
Posts: 16090
Location: Colorado

PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 12:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The T60 was an extension of the long established ThinkPad line. They're finally getting around to screwing with the design. THIS is what people were afraid of back in 2005... it just took longer to get there than expected.

I'm open to the minor changes, such as reduction of rubber nibs, elimination of latches, etc. I'm even willing to give the new keyboard a try (though I'd really prefer if it could be swapped for the old style).

They've also changed hinges, which I'm hoping they've tested thoroughly and have proven to be an improvement.

But when they start replacing usable buttons with a trackpad, a technology which has NEVER worked well, then they've crossed the line for me.

They easily could have done all this and put it in the IdeaPad line. That's the line for attracting peopel who don't like ThinkPads, not turning the ThinkPad into yet another generic laptop.
_________________
lolgov. 'cause where we're going, you don't have civil liberties.

In Loving Memory
1787 - 2008
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
wswartzendruber
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 23 Mar 2004
Posts: 1217
Location: Jefferson, USA

PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 2:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The T60 was similar to other ThinkPads only on the outside. The internal structure was entirely different.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
pjp
Administrator
Administrator


Joined: 16 Apr 2002
Posts: 16090
Location: Colorado

PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 3:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Probably came with the sale.
_________________
lolgov. 'cause where we're going, you don't have civil liberties.

In Loving Memory
1787 - 2008
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Clad in Sky
l33t
l33t


Joined: 04 May 2007
Posts: 751
Location: Germany

PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 9:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Regarding the T60, wsw is right. The innards are completely different from the T4x - but the difference between the T30 and T4x was at least as big.

I'm still hoping that these changes only affect the "Ultrabook" (T431s), not the normal T431 (if there are plans for one). Personally, I'm content with my T420 right now and not in a financial situation where I could buy a new one, anyway. Since I've got 4 years warranty on this one and 24/7 technical home service, I surely won't need a new one until 2015. :D
The idea itself, to ask people who up to now in the majority didn't use TPs or worse, were against using them, seems strange. Win new customres, lose old ones? Makes no sense to me.
We'll see.
_________________
Kali Ma
Now it's autumn of the aeons
Dance with your sword
Now it's time for the harvest
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
pjp
Administrator
Administrator


Joined: 16 Apr 2002
Posts: 16090
Location: Colorado

PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 11:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Clad in Sky wrote:
Regarding the T60, wsw is right. The innards are completely different from the T4x - but the difference between the T30 and T4x was at least as big.
And you think they made significant changes in such a short time without any plans IBM already had come up with? I doubt it. And even if they did, the changes were in keeping with the established ThinkPad precedent. THESE changes are not.

Clad in Sky wrote:
I'm still hoping that these changes only affect the "Ultrabook" (T431s), not the normal T431 (if there are plans for one). Personally, I'm content with my T420 right now
I'm thinking of buying something just in case. I haven't wanted to because I don't really _need_ to upgrade, but it'd be nice. And if they limit these changes to a single of couple of lines to test them, that might not be too bad.

Clad in Sky wrote:
The idea itself, to ask people who up to now in the majority didn't use TPs or worse, were against using them, seems strange. Win new customres, lose old ones? Makes no sense to me.
We'll see.
Yeah, that's the most concerning part. Makes me think they don't see enough of a market in loyalists, but that competing with every other generic manufacturer would be a Good Thing.
_________________
lolgov. 'cause where we're going, you don't have civil liberties.

In Loving Memory
1787 - 2008
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Clad in Sky
l33t
l33t


Joined: 04 May 2007
Posts: 751
Location: Germany

PostPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 7:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
Clad in Sky wrote:
Regarding the T60, wsw is right. The innards are completely different from the T4x - but the difference between the T30 and T4x was at least as big.
And you think they made significant changes in such a short time without any plans IBM already had come up with? I doubt it. And even if they did, the changes were in keeping with the established ThinkPad precedent.

Er, no, not really, and I agree that the changes they made to the T431s seem to be to the worse.
Given their testing methodology, it's kinda logical that they got rid of the enormously useful trackpoint with buttons below the space bar. Most people who, for one reason or another, use my TP (and don't have one of their own) find the nipple irritating (but I always switch off the touchpad, so they have to use it) and don't like it. So I guess, of the people Lenovo worked with, no one really used it, thus they decided to make the touchpad more prominent. Probably because it is what round corners are for Apple, they left the trackpoint in there but at the same time crippled it by removing the buttons, without which the trackpoint is useless.
_________________
Kali Ma
Now it's autumn of the aeons
Dance with your sword
Now it's time for the harvest
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
pjp
Administrator
Administrator


Joined: 16 Apr 2002
Posts: 16090
Location: Colorado

PostPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 10:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Clad in Sky wrote:
So I guess, of the people Lenovo worked with, no one really used it, thus they decided to make the touchpad more prominent.
Which is amusing, since I've never met a person who didn't complain about how poorly functional trackpads are*. And I've met several converts (those who learned & discovered how well the trackpoint works, myself included -- absolutely hated it initially).


* Within the context of a work environment / etc., not a random meeting where people declare their dislike of random items.
_________________
lolgov. 'cause where we're going, you don't have civil liberties.

In Loving Memory
1787 - 2008
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
wswartzendruber
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 23 Mar 2004
Posts: 1217
Location: Jefferson, USA

PostPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 11:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It seems to be influenced by Apple.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
pjp
Administrator
Administrator


Joined: 16 Apr 2002
Posts: 16090
Location: Colorado

PostPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 11:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If so, then it is worse than I feared.

I have never interacted with something so non-intuitive as Apple devices (one-button / no-button mouse and OSX, and something preceding it, no idea which version).
_________________
lolgov. 'cause where we're going, you don't have civil liberties.

In Loving Memory
1787 - 2008
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
runningwithscissors
Guru
Guru


Joined: 21 Apr 2006
Posts: 454
Location: the third world

PostPosted: Sat Mar 23, 2013 9:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The only 2 things that make it a must for me to buy a ThinkPad are the red trackpoint mouse and a keyboard that doesn't have those "calculator keys". If they can keep those things then I'd still buy one for my next laptop. Never liked backlit keyboards but I guess they shouldn't be too much of a problem.

I have never used the touchpad on my laptop since I bought it almost 4 years ago.

Oops. Missed that they eliminated the mouse buttons for the trackpoint. Well fuck that then.
_________________
At some stage, the Hindus locked on to the nation destroying concepts like ahimsa (non-violence), shanti (peace), satya (truth) — the ‘ass’ syndrome.


Last edited by runningwithscissors on Sat Mar 23, 2013 9:28 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Clad in Sky
l33t
l33t


Joined: 04 May 2007
Posts: 751
Location: Germany

PostPosted: Sat Mar 23, 2013 9:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

And if you look at the T431s you'll notice that it does have "calculator keys" and that they got rid of the buttons below the space bar.
So no T431s for you. :P
_________________
Kali Ma
Now it's autumn of the aeons
Dance with your sword
Now it's time for the harvest
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
runningwithscissors
Guru
Guru


Joined: 21 Apr 2006
Posts: 454
Location: the third world

PostPosted: Sat Mar 23, 2013 9:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Clad in Sky wrote:
And if you look at the T431s you'll notice that it does have "calculator keys" and that they got rid of the buttons below the space bar.
So no T431s for you. :P


Yeah :(

Fuck them then. The only reason I paid those premium prices for a ThinkPad were those things. It's indistinguishable from any other laptop without them.
_________________
At some stage, the Hindus locked on to the nation destroying concepts like ahimsa (non-violence), shanti (peace), satya (truth) — the ‘ass’ syndrome.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Clad in Sky
l33t
l33t


Joined: 04 May 2007
Posts: 751
Location: Germany

PostPosted: Sat Mar 23, 2013 9:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dunno about India, but here TPs also come with a 3 year warranty by default, which can be extended, should you wish to.
I also like the latches (another thing they got rid of in the T431s) that tightly close the lid and prevent stuff from getting between keyboard and LCD.
The possibility to use the ugly yet long lasting oversize batteries is also something you don't have in every laptop.
The ultrabay is also good. I'm considering getting a HDD for that, since I don't use the DVD drive very often.
The hardware also works very well with linux (but I guess this is more or less a non-issue nowadays). Ah, yes, compared to other laptops I've clapped eyes on, the TPs are more solidly built than most consumer notebooks.
_________________
Kali Ma
Now it's autumn of the aeons
Dance with your sword
Now it's time for the harvest
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
runningwithscissors
Guru
Guru


Joined: 21 Apr 2006
Posts: 454
Location: the third world

PostPosted: Sat Mar 23, 2013 9:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Clad in Sky wrote:
Dunno about India, but here TPs also come with a 3 year warranty by default, which can be extended, should you wish to.
I also like the latches (another thing they got rid of in the T431s) that tightly close the lid and prevent stuff from getting between keyboard and LCD.
The possibility to use the ugly yet long lasting oversize batteries is also something you don't have in every laptop.
The ultrabay is also good. I'm considering getting a HDD for that, since I don't use the DVD drive very often.
The hardware also works very well with linux (but I guess this is more or less a non-issue nowadays). Ah, yes, compared to other laptops I've clapped eyes on, the TPs are more solidly built than most consumer notebooks.


They come with a 3 year warranty here as well (mine did at least), but the batteries on both mine and my brother's laptops were shot after a year. The replacements have been long lasting. Apart from that, never had a problem with them. Mine is 4 years old and sees 8-9 hours of use every day. Some of the casing is starting to crack now around the hinges, so might need a new one in the coming year if this one doesn't hold out.

I don't use linux on it, because I tend to have more programming work on Windows.
_________________
At some stage, the Hindus locked on to the nation destroying concepts like ahimsa (non-violence), shanti (peace), satya (truth) — the ‘ass’ syndrome.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
pjp
Administrator
Administrator


Joined: 16 Apr 2002
Posts: 16090
Location: Colorado

PostPosted: Sat Mar 23, 2013 9:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

runningwithscissors wrote:
Clad in Sky wrote:
And if you look at the T431s you'll notice that it does have "calculator keys" and that they got rid of the buttons below the space bar.
So no T431s for you. :P


Yeah :(

Fuck them then. The only reason I paid those premium prices for a ThinkPad were those things. It's indistinguishable from any other laptop without them.
I think they still have a proper ThinkPad, but I haven't checked in a while. I'm fine with options, but I suspect it is just a matter of time.
_________________
lolgov. 'cause where we're going, you don't have civil liberties.

In Loving Memory
1787 - 2008
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Gentoo Forums Forum Index Off the Wall All times are GMT
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum