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Mardok45
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 7:29 am    Post subject: Canonical released a new display server, Mir Reply with quote

http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTMxNzI
http://linux.slashdot.org/story/13/03/04/1933216/canonical-announces-mir-a-new-display-server-not-on-x11-or-wayland
So Wayland is going to have some competition, besides X11. Canonical announced its home-grown display server, Mir. It looks like it's targeting the Ubuntu phone as its first platform and will have backwards compatibility with X11 and will have support for Qt and GTK+.

I don't really have a problem with this as long as Canonical builds the toolkit support themselves, rather than just simply specifying a protocol and leaving it up to the GTK+ and Qt developers to figure it out themselves. They don't have enough manpower as it is and dumping yet another display server on them will be a nightmare.

I don't think this is going to fragment the display servers. Rather it's going to stay within Canonical's walled-garden and everyone else will switch over to Wayland.


Last edited by Mardok45 on Tue Mar 05, 2013 9:07 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 8:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It looks like Ubuntu has dropped plans to eventually support Wayland. IMHO this means Wayland is effectively dead in the water. I'm not sure how I feel about this. Wayland always had a vaporware-ish feel to it.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 8:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whatever the state Wayland is in, I don't think Mir is going to change it, for better or worse. Given Canonical's track record so far, there's only 3 possible outcomes for Mir:

1. It completely fails to take off.
2. It works quite well under Ubuntu systems, but that's it.
3. It has, at most, absolutely minimal impact on the rest of the open source ecosystem.

Now, as a business decision, I can see why they would want to develop their own display server. If they're going to try to release their own phone or TV operating system and have been talking to other manufacturers for developing an Ubuntu-based device, then maybe they would want to develop a display server that's tightly integrated with those devices and is easy to work with.

That's why I'm saying it's probably not going to have much of an impact on Wayland.

* Everyone's been preparing for the Wayland switch for a while and are dead-set on it.
* Canonical is probably not going to have much success pushing Mir on other platforms.
* This is most likely a need for making a "good-enough" specification for their own devices, not a full-blown display server like X11 or Wayland.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 8:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pigeon768 wrote:
It looks like Ubuntu has dropped plans to eventually support Wayland. IMHO this means Wayland is effectively dead in the water. I'm not sure how I feel about this. Wayland always had a vaporware-ish feel to it.

Wayland does not depend on Ubuntu contributions.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 9:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mardok45 wrote:
* Everyone's been preparing for the Wayland switch for a while and are dead-set on it.
I take significant issue with this statement. There are a few basic groups of people:
  1. Those who are dead-set on Wayland.
  2. Those who are dead-set on an X11 replacement.
  3. Those who are preparing for Wayland, but aren't dedicated to it.
  4. Those who don't think it's a good idea, but are preparing for it because they are afraid of being left out in the cold.
  5. Those who think it's a good idea, but aren't preparing for it.
  6. Those who oppose it.
Ubuntu dropping Wayland means many of those in group #5 will never switch to group #3. Ubuntu dropping Wayland means many of those in group #3 will switch to group #5. Ubuntu dropping Wayland is going to piss off group #4, and many will switch to group #7. Ubuntu dropping Wayland will fracture group #2. Wayland's future prospects are in shambles.

@genstorm: obviously not. The problem is that Wayland doesn't depend on just itself: it needs window manager support, toolkit support, tooling support, driver support etc from hundreds of other projects. Wayland is a chicken and egg problem. Nobody supports Wayland because nobody uses Wayland, and nobody uses Wayland because nobody supports Wayland. Ubuntu's public commitment to Wayland meant that a significant number of people were likely to use Ubuntu in the future; if you wanted your project to survive Ubuntu's Wayland switch, you would need to make sure your project supported Wayland. Now that's gone. Rather than do work to make sure your project is Wayland proof, there's no longer any need since Wayland has no prospect of being the backbone of any major linux distribution.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 12:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

in the spirit of all these lists...

1. it's ubuntu's fucking choice. they're a private entity.
2. it's still ubuntu's fucking choice.
3. x11/x.org are terrible, flaming shitpiles.
4. did i mention that it's ubuntu's choice?
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 12:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No one denied them their choice. Anyone is free to fail. :roll:

@pigeon768: Toolkit support for Wayland has been in the making for some time, DEs are preparing for it already. No one will suddenly drop that work when Canonical have barely announced their display server and so far lack credibility and manpower to do so. While Wayland has been in the making for years, and still X11 is here to stay.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 12:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

big dave wrote:
in the spirit of all these lists...

1. it's ubuntu's fucking choice. they're a private entity.
2. it's still ubuntu's fucking choice.
3. x11/x.org are terrible, flaming shitpiles.
4. did i mention that it's ubuntu's choice?
I think you're not understanding what I'm saying. I'm not saying it's not Ubuntu's choice. I'm not criticizing Ubuntu. I'm also not saying that Xorg (not to mention freedesktop.org) isn't a giant flaming shitpile.

I'm saying that as a result of Ubuntu's (perfectly legitimate) choice, Wayland gon' get fucked.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 5:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

just have a look at launchpad.

You are not allowed to use the icons.
You need some special voodoo to set it up. This voodoo is a well kept secret.
They really don't want you to set up your own instance and use it for your own stuff.
They DO want you to contribute to its development and make some money with it.

Ubuntu is worse than Redhat.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 6:15 pm    Post subject: Re: Canonical released a new display server, Mir Reply with quote

Mardok45 wrote:
It looks like it's targeting the Ubuntu phone as its first platform and will have backwards compatibility with X11 and will have support for Qt and GTK+.


This just shows that what opensource critics say is partly true: 'nobody is going to develop good software for free'. Hopefully with those mobile phones running linux there will be soon the need for a robust new generation display server, whether this will be good or not for the linux desktop I don't know but future linuxes will keep pace with windows 8 and look like a phone :-)
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 10:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

energyman76b wrote:
Ubuntu is worse than Redhat.

Redhat has Poettering.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 11:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

aidanjt wrote:
energyman76b wrote:
Ubuntu is worse than Redhat.

Redhat has Poettering.


redhat gives back. Unlike ubunturd
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Libertardian denial of reality is wholly unimpressive and unconvincing, and simply serves to demonstrate what a bunch of delusional fools they all are.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 11:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

energyman76b wrote:
aidanjt wrote:
energyman76b wrote:
Ubuntu is worse than Redhat.

Redhat has Poettering.

redhat gives back. Unlike ubunturd

I really really wish they didn't. Their contributions has been akin to an elephant with its tail on fire.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 12:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

aidanjt wrote:
energyman76b wrote:
aidanjt wrote:
energyman76b wrote:
Ubuntu is worse than Redhat.

Redhat has Poettering.

redhat gives back. Unlike ubunturd

I really really wish they didn't. Their contributions has been akin to an elephant with its tail on fire.

Can you elaborate? Where is the problem with Red Hat's contributions?
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 12:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mardok45 wrote:
Can you elaborate? Where is the problem with Red Hat's contributions?

Oh you know, systemd is evil and such.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 5:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wouldn't worry about Mir affecting either X11 OR Wayland. Wayland is incomplete conceptually (an advantage since it can throw out assumptions like retangular desktops and deal with things like hologrpahic spheres)- basically it a "factoring out" of the device-specific functions of X - it handle low-level concepts like handing buffers for applications to draw on and sending input events. How the contexts of the buffer should be interpreted (bitmaps, openGl), how what application input events should be routed to, or even the matter of where the window should be positioned (or for that matter even the concept of window position)- are left to the "compositor". On the other hand X11 is TOO complete, thus it can deal with window position, background but it makes fixed assumption like rectangular screens, and carries a bunch of legacy stuff in the core protocol that been obsolete for ages.

It will be a long time to divorce X from the hardware (Among other things, as things currently starnd, the current implementation of full OpenGL and X are intertwined), and some time for the layers of the Wayland compositor stack to become more concrete (so we know where things like background and window positions should be defined at). As Wayland matures, Mir can (and I suspect will) become just another layer of the Wayland stack (probably lower-level than XWayland but higher-level than the compositor)
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 5:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

aidanjt wrote:
energyman76b wrote:
aidanjt wrote:
energyman76b wrote:
Ubuntu is worse than Redhat.

Redhat has Poettering.

redhat gives back. Unlike ubunturd

I really really wish they didn't. Their contributions has been akin to an elephant with its tail on fire.


good luck with a kernel missing half its drivers and features, a nonexisting glibc, gcc still being held back by IBM and Xorg being Xfree - and just starting to realize that 3d might be more than CAD.
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Libertardian denial of reality is wholly unimpressive and unconvincing, and simply serves to demonstrate what a bunch of delusional fools they all are.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 7:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

energyman76b wrote:
good luck with a kernel missing half its drivers and features, a nonexisting glibc, gcc still being held back by IBM and Xorg being Xfree - and just starting to realize that 3d might be more than CAD.

You mean back before all that stuff started sucking balls. I'd be cool with that rollback. Particularly without the faildesktop.org shite.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 8:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

aidanjt wrote:
energyman76b wrote:
good luck with a kernel missing half its drivers and features, a nonexisting glibc, gcc still being held back by IBM and Xorg being Xfree - and just starting to realize that 3d might be more than CAD.

You mean back before all that stuff started sucking balls. I'd be cool with that rollback. Particularly without the faildesktop.org shite.


feeling childish today?

Just do a quick grep -Ri Redhat /usr/src/linux |less
and try not to pee your panties. Do the same with the libc, gcc etc source trees. Be prepared to find a lot.
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Libertardian denial of reality is wholly unimpressive and unconvincing, and simply serves to demonstrate what a bunch of delusional fools they all are.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 8:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was going to post an mgraesslin blog entry, but well, it is currently offline: http://blog.martin-graesslin.com/blog/2013/03/war-is-peace/

Quote:
First question: Does Mir affect us? Yes, obviously. Because of Mir I have to write this blog post, Wayland developers have to get the FUD out of the Mir documentation, it’s creating tension and it harms the development. We will have to face again and again the question whether Wayland is better or not. So yes it affects us and I’m not happy about it.


Quote:
Second question: Does it affect our plans for Wayland? ... So far I have not seen anything in the documentation that would look like an advantage over Wayland. Given the incorrect statements about Wayland I’m very skeptical whether there can be any advantages. ... Just consider the number of toolkits which have been used for Unity – given that I would not bet on Mir will be used next year and that means of course that we should not consider it for our planning.


Quote:
Third question: Will KWin support Mir? No! Mir is currently a one distribution only solution and any adjustments would be distro specific. We do not accept patches to support one downstream. ... If Mir becomes available on more distributions one can consider the second question. Given the extreme success of Unity on non-Ubuntu distributions I’m positively optimistic that we will never have to do the evaluation of the second question.

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