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pjp
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 5:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sikpuppy wrote:
So your answer to people living hand to mouth to make ends meet is: NO.
Live within their means.

sikpuppy wrote:
The trouble is people might be able to afford a pizza, or a DVD, or a few beers one week and then the next week their living expenses unexpectedly rise.
By definition that means they really couldn't afford those things. Had they put the money into savings, the "unexpected" living expenses may have been manageable. But at least you can try and shift blame from where it belongs.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 5:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

juniper wrote:
Things like cell phones and cars can be necessary for employment. But the other things you mention are optional.

London is where the jobs are!
A cell phone is not a requirement for a low end job. A phone of some sort, quite possibly. Basic phone lines aren't that expensive in the US, and I thought one of our taxes was to help provide free service. I may be mistaken on that. A car in the US is almost a requirement. In cities, even here, many people manage without their own transportation. So it isn't a need. Also, where it is a need, a $1k, $2k, $5k or maybe even a $10k car is perfectly suitable to the income at hand.

As for London, if the jobs don't pay enough to live there, then the jobs really aren't there. When nobody is available to perform the work, the wages will go up, or people will look to move elsewhere. Propping up an unsustainable living arrangement is not a good idea. I'd love to live in La Jolla, bu I can't afford it. Doesn't mean someone should be forced to pay me enough because I want it.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 6:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
A cell phone is not a requirement for a low end job.


Gardener? Etc. Etc.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 6:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcgruff wrote:
pjp wrote:
A cell phone is not a requirement for a low end job.


Gardener? Etc. Etc.


Gardner, Farmer, Construction Worker, Road Worker, Maid, Waiter/Waitress, etc. etc.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 7:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
juniper wrote:
Things like cell phones and cars can be necessary for employment. But the other things you mention are optional.

London is where the jobs are!
A cell phone is not a requirement for a low end job. A phone of some sort, quite possibly. Basic phone lines aren't that expensive in the US, and I thought one of our taxes was to help provide free service. I may be mistaken on that. A car in the US is almost a requirement. In cities, even here, many people manage without their own transportation. So it isn't a need. Also, where it is a need, a $1k, $2k, $5k or maybe even a $10k car is perfectly suitable to the income at hand.

As for London, if the jobs don't pay enough to live there, then the jobs really aren't there. When nobody is available to perform the work, the wages will go up, or people will look to move elsewhere. Propping up an unsustainable living arrangement is not a good idea. I'd love to live in La Jolla, bu I can't afford it. Doesn't mean someone should be forced to pay me enough because I want it.


Oh. not saying that people should live in London. I do because of the jobs.

As for "needs". I class a phone as a need. You are a gardener and you don't know where you are working the next day, but can't wait at home? get a mobile. Cars too. You are right, don't get a smartphone and a porsche.

In any case, we are getting side tracked. You are preaching to the choir when you say live frugally. My wife and I have a large income, but we live frugally on account of habit and large mortgage. We have a car we bought 4 years ago for 600 pounds, and really don't spend much (eating out a bit, but because we have young kids, we can't go out that much). But anyway, people will decide for themselves what is necessary and what isn't. Judging by the number of households in severe debt, I would say that more than the poor are terrible with money.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 7:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

juniper wrote:
In any case, we are getting side tracked. You are preaching to the choir when you say live frugally. My wife and I have a large income, but we live frugally on account of habit and large mortgage. We have a car we bought 4 years ago for 600 pounds, and really don't spend much (eating out a bit, but because we have young kids, we can't go out that much). But anyway, people will decide for themselves what is necessary and what isn't. Judging by the number of households in severe debt, I would say that more than the poor are terrible with money.


++

Fuck a new car, I've never bought one. Where I didn't scrimp was a house, I've always had the mentality that it is an investment, not an expense.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 12:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
Budgeting is not the solution, changing priorities is also a requirement. NO, you don't NEED pay-TV. NO, you don't NEED a cell phone. NO, you don't NEED to own your own house. NO, you don't NEED to patronize restaurants. NO, you don't NEED a car disproportionate to your income. In fact, not only no, but it shouldn't even be an option. Live within your means. Which as I previously mentioned includes the obvious, NO, you don't NEED to live in London.

Yes, but I WANT those things, and therefore they are essential to my HAPPINESS, to which I am ENTITLED, because happiness is a Human Right! That's why they call it "Welfare". How can you say I'm "faring well", if I'm not happy!? And, how can anybody be happy without a big-screen flat-panel cable TV, a cell phone, and a high-speed Internet connection? You're just waging a war on the poor!

(Closer to the truth is this: how do you keep the sheeple docile and compliant without plugging them into a Matrix-like torrent of escapism and alternate reality, currently provided by big-screen flat-panel cable TV, cell phones, and high-speed internet?)
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 2:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

juniper wrote:
You are preaching to the choir when you say live frugally. My wife and I have a large income, but we live frugally on account of habit and large mortgage. We have a car we bought 4 years ago for 600 pounds, and really don't spend much (eating out a bit, but because we have young kids, we can't go out that much). But anyway, people will decide for themselves what is necessary and what isn't.
The point really isn't living frugally. It is about being responsible, which is to a degree the complete opposite of people deciding what is necessary and what is not. Yes, they will decide, but irresponsible dispersal of government assistance contributes to the problem.

And a round of applause to you and yours for being considerate to others and not going out with young kids. It amazes me that parents seem to think it is perfectly OK to allow their children to run around in restaurants like they're at an inflatable fun house.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 2:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
You're just waging a war on the poor!

(Closer to the truth is this: how do you keep the sheeple docile and compliant without plugging them into a Matrix-like torrent of escapism and alternate reality, currently provided by big-screen flat-panel cable TV, cell phones, and high-speed internet?)
My war is against those stealing from me.

Compliance might have been part of the original intent behind welfare, but it is now 100% about votes. Democrats do nothing to address Big Prison and continually expand police powers (physical and theoretical).
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 8:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
pjp wrote:
Budgeting is not the solution, changing priorities is also a requirement. NO, you don't NEED pay-TV. NO, you don't NEED a cell phone. NO, you don't NEED to own your own house. NO, you don't NEED to patronize restaurants. NO, you don't NEED a car disproportionate to your income. In fact, not only no, but it shouldn't even be an option. Live within your means. Which as I previously mentioned includes the obvious, NO, you don't NEED to live in London.

Yes, but I WANT those things, and therefore they are essential to my HAPPINESS, to which I am ENTITLED, because happiness is a Human Right! That's why they call it "Welfare". How can you say I'm "faring well", if I'm not happy!? And, how can anybody be happy without a big-screen flat-panel cable TV, a cell phone, and a high-speed Internet connection? You're just waging a war on the poor!

(Closer to the truth is this: how do you keep the sheeple docile and compliant without plugging them into a Matrix-like torrent of escapism and alternate reality, currently provided by big-screen flat-panel cable TV, cell phones, and high-speed internet?)


Tbh you cannot blame automatrones programmed by corporations for NEEDING THINGS to be HAPPY. The whole consumerism is based on that paradigm. Things make you happy! If you don't consume, you suck, and your life sucks. Take a loan and CONSUME!

So now its sheeples fault for doing it? Whos the shepherd? Blame them.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 2:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Prenj wrote:
BoneKracker wrote:
pjp wrote:
Budgeting is not the solution, changing priorities is also a requirement. NO, you don't NEED pay-TV. NO, you don't NEED a cell phone. NO, you don't NEED to own your own house. NO, you don't NEED to patronize restaurants. NO, you don't NEED a car disproportionate to your income. In fact, not only no, but it shouldn't even be an option. Live within your means. Which as I previously mentioned includes the obvious, NO, you don't NEED to live in London.

Yes, but I WANT those things, and therefore they are essential to my HAPPINESS, to which I am ENTITLED, because happiness is a Human Right! That's why they call it "Welfare". How can you say I'm "faring well", if I'm not happy!? And, how can anybody be happy without a big-screen flat-panel cable TV, a cell phone, and a high-speed Internet connection? You're just waging a war on the poor!

(Closer to the truth is this: how do you keep the sheeple docile and compliant without plugging them into a Matrix-like torrent of escapism and alternate reality, currently provided by big-screen flat-panel cable TV, cell phones, and high-speed internet?)


Tbh you cannot blame automatrones programmed by corporations for NEEDING THINGS to be HAPPY. The whole consumerism is based on that paradigm. Things make you happy! If you don't consume, you suck, and your life sucks. Take a loan and CONSUME!

So now its sheeples fault for doing it? Whos the shepherd? Blame them.


Indeed. What part of our culture promotes values such as sustained reflection and prudence? basically, only hippies and religious people do that. As I said, household debt levels suggest more than the poor spend beyond their means.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 3:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

juniper wrote:
Indeed. What part of our culture promotes values such as sustained reflection and prudence? basically, only hippies and religious people do that. As I said, household debt levels suggest more than the poor spend beyond their means.


I'm religious, my faith requires that you have financial control over yourself, the only debt I have is a house, and about $500 on a credit card that will be paid off in two weeks time, that's on a single income family with a wife and 5 month old to support, and yes, all medical bills paid off as well.

But you guys are right, I think people have been programmed to spend or feel like they are not happy, I've never understood it myself.
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