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ulenrich
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 9:42 am    Post subject: Is openrc the clean alternative? Reply with quote

Yamakuzure wrote:
Just another thought: I find it interesting that people advertising for systemd always state it "just works". For something this basic and fundamental it is the least I'd expect. And openrc+sysvinit does the same. It "just works". ;)
Two years ago - when I started using Gentoo - openrc didn't just work for me. I played hours with boot and sysinit - what fits where. Ok, perhaps this was due to changing Linux environment - udev and devtmpfs etc ...

I could start using systemd with far less engagement. Despite the existence of more than 200 man pages for systemd, I can handle it knowing of just systemctl start/stop/status/enable/disable/isolate. Because systemd was wrongly accused of no documentation I mentioned the man pages.

I recently found out openrc developers now agreed how net dependency should work.

Openrc after years of development doesn't consider the parallel boot feature as stable.

If you want a full featured Gnome your Openrc depends on Consolekit (the predecessor of systemd-logind - also invented at fedoraproject.org), which can't handle multi-seat. If you don't really need it on a single user machine, it creates for you a hundreds of empty threads. There is a reason why Debian plans to get away with it after Wheezy.

And could you please explain me what the hell this dirty 10 years old workaround does, found in /etc/init.d/xdm:
Code:
# Resolution: add the following line to /etc/inittab
#
#  x:a:once:/etc/X11/startDM.sh
#
# and have /etc/X11/startDM.sh start the DM in daemon mode if
# a lock is present (with the info of what DM should be started),
# else just fall through.
#
# How this basically works, is the "a" runlevel is a additional
# runlevel that you can use to fork processes with init, but the
# runlevel never gets changed to this runlevel.  Along with the "a"
# runlevel, the "once" key word means that startDM.sh will only be
# run when we specify it to run, thus eliminating respawning
# startDM.sh when "xdm" is not added to the default runlevel, as was
# done previously.
#
# This script then just calls "telinit a", and init will run
# /etc/X11/startDM.sh after the current runlevel completes (this
# script should only be added to the actual runlevel the user is
# using).
#
# Martin Schlemmer
# aka Azarah
# 04 March 2002

But:
- With all the shortcomings of openrc, I am happy to have it installed in parallel. I follow Gentoo~unstable. There might be an upgrade not working and I would be able to work around using openrc.
- Coming from Debian Gentoo Openrc felt more elaborate and cleaner than insserv.
- There is no valide SysV-init. Every implementation had its shortcomings. In the first place it was a multiple stages mechanism to get a machine into run mode. Which was a sucking complicated and error prone effort some decades ago. The booting procedures had to be patiantly worked on some hours with standby operators.
- I lough about this undead myth of "unix philosophy": It was just a goal for a couple of commercial unix vendors to quiet their user community. But it never worked. Why else are there desperate attempts of the lasting unices under way to get the Linux stack of tools working on their machines?
- Greg is working on a kernel powered dbus in favor of Gnome Apps. Is this bad "vertical integration" or good intention, because he is a Gentoo and openSUSE maintainer but has no involvement with fedoraproject?
- Reading all this one sided opinion full of prejudice I call on all my bad english knowledge to write down some facts. Seen as the last standing "advocate" of systemd then feels like a scientist speaking about Darwin in a mid western church.
- There is a billion Dollar commercial interest behind this effort, what has a theoretical potential to become the first valide init system (J.Schilling yet would point out Solaris with contractfs). I excitedly look out its development!
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Yamakuzure
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 1:36 pm    Post subject: Re: Is openrc the clean alternative? Reply with quote

ulenrich wrote:
Yamakuzure wrote:
Just another thought: I find it interesting that people advertising for systemd always state it "just works". For something this basic and fundamental it is the least I'd expect. And openrc+sysvinit does the same. It "just works". ;)
Two years ago - when I started using Gentoo - openrc didn't just work for me. I played hours with boot and sysinit - what fits where. Ok, perhaps this was due to changing Linux environment - udev and devtmpfs etc ...
Yes. But we do have today and not two years ago. Today *both* "just work" in the already meantioned 90% use cases. In both you can be unlucky to belong to the remaining 10% where both or either does not work out of the box. It is just absolutely no advertisment argument. That's all I meant.
ulenrich wrote:
And could you please explain me what the hell this dirty 10 years old workaround does, found in /etc/init.d/xdm:
No. But could you please explain what a) this has to do with systemd and/or openrc and b) why you quote the explanation and _NOT_ the "workaround"?
Here is the important part:
Code:
# This is here to serve as a note to myself, and future developers.
#
# Any Display manager (gdm,kdm,xdm) has the following problem:  if
# it is started before any getty, and no vt is specified, it will
# usually run on vt2.  When the getty on vt2 then starts, and the
# DM is already started, the getty will take control of the keyboard,
# leaving us with a "dead" keyboard.
#
# Resolution: add the following line to /etc/inittab
#
#  x:a:once:/etc/X11/startDM.sh
So as you can see, no systemd or openrc issue.
ulenrich wrote:
- I lough about this undead myth of "unix philosophy": It was just a goal for a couple of commercial unix vendors to quiet their user community. But it never worked. Why else are there desperate attempts of the lasting unices under way to get the Linux stack of tools working on their machines?
I must admit I do not understand this one. :(
ulenrich wrote:
- Reading all this one sided opinion full of prejudice I call on all my bad english knowledge to write down some facts. Seen as the last standing "advocate" of systemd then feels like a scientist speaking about Darwin in a mid western church.
Now calling yourself an "advocate" is a bit much, isn't it? You tried it, you like it. I find it interesting but see no need to test systemd in practice right now. But of course there are those bashing on systemd because they simply hate L.Poettering. Mind, read his texts on various mailing lists archives. Or explanations about design choices on freedesktop.org. They have such an irritating attitude talking down on us, it is understandable that a lot of people hate that.
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ulenrich
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 3:51 pm    Post subject: Re: Is openrc the clean alternative? Reply with quote

@Yamakuzure, Your writing about the subject is cool and not as one sided and paranoia driven as others :)
Your more complete quote of init.d/xdm here:
Yamakuzure wrote:
ulenrich wrote:
And could you please explain me what the hell this dirty 10 years old workaround does, found in /etc/init.d/xdm:
No. But could you please explain what a) this has to do with systemd and/or openrc and b) why you quote the explanation and _NOT_ the "workaround"?
Here is the important part:
Code:
# This is here to serve as a note to myself, and future developers.
#
# Any Display manager (gdm,kdm,xdm) has the following problem:  if
# it is started before any getty, and no vt is specified, it will
# usually run on vt2.  When the getty on vt2 then starts, and the
# DM is already started, the getty will take control of the keyboard,
# leaving us with a "dead" keyboard.
#
# Resolution: add the following line to /etc/inittab
#
#  x:a:once:/etc/X11/startDM.sh
So as you can see, no systemd or openrc issue.
shows even better what I was intending to argue:
Obviously openrc has such shortcomings nobody is able to enforce a clean init tree with valide dependencies. If that is not possible after ten years, what do you hope for now? TMHO the same is true regarding advanced session management.

Quote:
But of course there are those bashing on systemd because they simply hate L.Poettering. Mind, read his texts on various mailing lists archives. Or explanations about design choices on freedesktop.org. They have such an irritating attitude talking down on us, it is understandable that a lot of people hate that.
Uuups, I didn't notice! Like Lennart I myself am a northern german guy - regarded downwards Frankfurt (see "Weisswurstaequator") as very unfriendly and awkward type of prussian (hardly) human being. Foreign tourist constantly get shocked when entering a cab in Berlin from harshness of the driver.

I have just seen the video of Lennarts recent lecture at fosdem and a two years ago discussion, where Lennart constantly intervened. What I noticed: The main point against Lennart two years ago was: He is not using namespaces. He didn't argue about at that time! But two years later all of systemd is about namespaces ...

He seriously considers all arguments, but mayby Lennarts aggressiveness is a prussian attitude hardly for others to bare. And his nerd type of humor (considering the inclusion of Linux into Systemd, disposing udev) ... Hard to deal with him?
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krinn
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 4:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If lennart would built cars here how he would do it :
- no direction : why the fuck we need one, roads should be straight. It's roads that are bugged.
- no breaks : why the fuck anyone is driving on the same road as me. It's all those naggers fault.
- no lights : why the fuck sun goes down. Ask God to fix his stuff.
...
And if you use your car (that you paid 10x times because v1 was with flat tires tract by wolves, v2 drop wolves and use horses, and v3 you now own, finally drop the horses for a horde of dolphins) in an empty straight road, made of water because of the dolphins last addition, on polar day, yeah, "it just works".
(i'm not sure anyone would get the v1-v3 changes, it's about hal-udev-kit & co built and drop as soon as you are able to make them work)

Look in the forum to see how many people are left off-road. And this isn't udev-car it's ssuominen-car's version, i couldn't imagine how painful a real plain non patch udev would be !
So the "it just works", maybe, for you, but at what costs ?

How many tools/functionalities people have lost from using openrc ? (even i agree openrc might not work 100% for everyone). How much time people invest at raising wolves so openrc could finally tell them wolves sucks and horses are the future (keeping the dolphin surprise for later).
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ulenrich
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 5:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@krinn,

yes, these metaphers truly describe our experience as exposed users.
yes, Yamakuzure already explained "Just work's" no point.
yeah, I bet our new udev maintainer got it from feedback, it is the sensitive ebuild!

Include into consideration of the review:
we in our lifetime experience the very fresh
exploration of the new domain of software.

But in this moment I would bet
after these new frameworks (systemd,wayland,gnome3,kde5)
we will have some years quiet time.

My knowledge of recent past says
Never was quiet, ever accelerated
Dont't bet!

But I realy think the only next step
is to harmonize the cloud helpers
to work productive together

The tools are there
deep changes not needed
only the little steps of improvement

The next revolution of
real artificial intelligence
is a decade away

Nobody is able to fully imagine
having technical helpers implanted :)
or seduced in total by compelling games :(
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Yamakuzure
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 5:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ulenrich wrote:
@Yamakuzure, Your writing about the subject is cool and not as one sided and paranoia driven as others :)
I have absolutely no negative opinion about both Lennard Poettering or systemd. I think LP is doing what he can and thinks is best. Nobody forces me to agree with him or his ideas, so I am free to disagree. The same goes with systemd. I think it is basically a good idea. But as long as I haven't had the time to test it myself, I have no opinion about the actual implementation. Or maybe I am just too old for flame-wars. ;) The last I "enjoyed" was Amiga versus Atari.
ulenrich wrote:
Your more complete quote of init.d/xdm here:
(...snip...)
shows even better what I was intending to argue:
Obviously openrc has such shortcomings nobody is able to enforce a clean init tree with valide dependencies.
Ah! The "workaround" (it is none. It is just a hint why a specific line in inittab exists. A line that does _nothing_ unless xdm is started.) is from 2002. OpenRC had its initial release in april 2007. You *might* want to argue that the OpenRC team should have "fixed" something that is an issue only if a login manager and getty are started in the wrong order? Maybe they did. Maybe said line is already enough. However, it does not change the situation that this simple line in inittab is neither a "workaround" nor an OpenRC issue.
ulenrich wrote:
Like Lennart I myself am a northern german guy - regarded downwards Frankfurt (see "Weisswurstaequator") as very unfriendly and awkward type of prussian (hardly) human being. Foreign tourist constantly get shocked when entering a cab in Berlin from harshness of the driver.
I think we "Nordlichter" and "Fischköppe" shouldn't use those impressions as an excuse. ;) I know exactly what you mean. :D

@krinn, I think it fits well.

And I bet, as you listed the "Hall of Shame" of the "Poettering Projects", that this is another strong point why so many people reacted on systemd with something like: "Oh no! Not that guy again!". :twisted:
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hcaulfield57
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 6:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

EDIT: Okay, I'm done. :roll: It's not even worth my time responding to the trolling on this thread.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 8:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll have to adjust my attitude towards forums in a sense I don't treat this as bugzilla. It just pisses me from time to time see people spread the FUD that has no technical merits.
Would be nicer if everyone just talked based on facts, not what they might have heard from someone say about udev, eudev or systemd, or anything else for that matter.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 2:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ulenrich wrote:
@krinn,

yes, these metaphers truly describe our experience as exposed users.
yes, Yamakuzure already explained "Just work's" no point.

And yes, off you go again after admitting actually people might have valid reasons for not wanting to use that crap, or go thru the same grief again all because some 22-year-old never learnt his craft and never got slapped down for messing up an end-user's systems, but did learn how to get PR and sell snake-oil, into your world of vague aphorisms and bizarre rambling.
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