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depontius
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 6:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Since systemd and OpenRC have both come up in the same thread, it begs another question...

What is the status and outlook for rc_parallel in OpenRC? This is one of those things that can speed up the boot process - one of those advantages cited for systemd. But in /etc/rc.conf it says that rc_parallel is likely to be problematic.

Is anyone actively working on making rc_parallel rock-solid?
Are the problem well understood?
Where do I read? A quick trip to google mostly takes me back to 0.9.6 problems, no general discussion.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 6:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

depontius wrote:
Since systemd and OpenRC have both come up in the same thread, it begs another question...

What is the status and outlook for rc_parallel in OpenRC? This is one of those things that can speed up the boot process - one of those advantages cited for systemd. But in /etc/rc.conf it says that rc_parallel is likely to be problematic.

Is anyone actively working on making rc_parallel rock-solid?
Are the problem well understood?
Where do I read? A quick trip to google mostly takes me back to 0.9.6 problems, no general discussion.

I too was curious about this, whether it worked or not. Not that it really matters, because my system boots in about 10 seconds anyways.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 7:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

depontius wrote:
Is anyone actively working on making rc_parallel rock-solid?
Are the problem well understood?
What are the means of openrc to run in "rc_parallel" mode?

The hacker of the init.d/script(s) assumes it could run in parallel and sets a positive flag.
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John R. Graham
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 7:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Do you mean, how do you enable it? If so, then it's right there in rc.conf.
/etc/rc.conf:
# Global OpenRC configuration settings

# Set to "YES" if you want the rc system to try and start services
# in parallel for a slight speed improvement. When running in parallel we
# prefix the service output with its name as the output will get
# jumbled up.
# WARNING: whilst we have improved parallel, it can still potentially lock
# the boot process. Don't file bugs about this unless you can supply
# patches that fix it without breaking other things!
#rc_parallel="NO"
- John
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depontius
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 9:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've read that - I was asking about progress toward making it sufficiently robust to take the warning off.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 9:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've been using rc_parallel for a long time and it appears to work perfectly. Of course I'm not doing anything exotic either. My setups are all either desktops or thin clients.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 12:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

duby2291 wrote:
I've been using rc_parallel for a long time and it appears to work perfectly. Of course I'm not doing anything exotic either. My setups are all either desktops or thin clients.


How much does it speed up the boot, in your experience ?
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duby2291
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 10:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not much... I mean I tend to keep very light systems. They don't do much at startup really. I'd take a guess and say no more than 2 or 3 seconds. Each script runs in miliseconds, so it couldnt possible be that much a difference.

Not counting the post screen... From grub to display manager only takes about 10-11 seconds maybe.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 10:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is why I think that for today's systems being overly concerned with boot times is kind of stupid. Most computers boot pretty fast nowadays... The thing you can do to improve your boot time the most, is simply to compile your own kernels. Sure, don't get me wrong, I love that my computer boots fast (around 15 seconds), but still...
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 1:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Honestly the best thing I ever did for boot times was when I got an SSD.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 1:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The best thing I ever did for boot times was realize I really don't care that much about it. I rarely reboot, and when I do, it's not like I need it back up in 10 seconds because zomg the gooks are in the wire.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 12:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Things are getting even better with sys-fs/udev:

- Installation without -j1 works in 9999 again
- libsystemd-daemon in no longer linked against libudev and libgudev, nor installed with 9999
- 197-r8 has support down to 2.6.32 series, even without accept4() function. 9999 will work with 2.6.32.60 on most arch's, accept4() required here. need latest.
- hwdb update works with different $ROOT, so hwids files are read from correct place and hwdb.bin gets installed in correct place

That should cover most of the "problems" people have pointed out lately. No real reason to use eudev at the moment, not even a old kernel.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 2:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Almost sounds like the vision of eudev becoming a more commonly used fork scared Red Hat and Poettering got a memo from his bosses...
And as a nice byproduct, RH might even consider hiring the devs responsible for eudev.

Maybe I'm talking nonsense, but being RH, I certainly wouldn't want my SW to get shattered into forks and loose control over it's evolution and the support of the community.
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dmpogo
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 3:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
The best thing I ever did for boot times was realize I really don't care that much about it. I rarely reboot, and when I do, it's not like I need it back up in 10 seconds because zomg the gooks are in the wire.


Exactly, it is an issue on moblile platforms, but on servers, desktops, and laptops with good hybernation I can't care less. Not to say it is POST to kernel that already takes for me half boot time, if not more.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 4:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think it's any more of an issue on mobile devices. I have an android tablet, and when I push the power button it really just goes into suspend. To actually reboot it, you have to hold the power button and confirm you really want to reboot. I think I reboot it about once a week on average. If it weren't for buggy, memory-leaking apps, I doubt I'd reboot it any more often than my desktop.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 9:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

smartass wrote:
Almost sounds like the vision of eudev becoming a more commonly used fork scared Red Hat and Poettering got a memo from his bosses...

I wonder if that's true as well, suddenly there is competition.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 10:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ssuominen wrote:
No real reason to use eudev at the moment, ...


Not true ... The competition needs to be kept alive or Red Had may revert to its previous tactics.
There is more reason than ever to use eudev now.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 3:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NeddySeagoon wrote:
ssuominen wrote:
No real reason to use eudev at the moment, ...


Not true ... The competition needs to be kept alive or Red Had may revert to its previous tactics.
There is more reason than ever to use eudev now.
I concur.
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ssuominen
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 4:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NeddySeagoon wrote:
ssuominen wrote:
No real reason to use eudev at the moment, ...


Not true ... The competition needs to be kept alive or Red Had may revert to its previous tactics.
There is more reason than ever to use eudev now.


I wouldn't call it a serious competitor when it offers nothing over orig. udev. Oh, right, they removed systemd support where as orig. udev works with both OpenRC and systemd.
Maybe it will change in future, we'll see.
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ulenrich
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 4:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

not just udev but
the broader "evil" strategy
Kai shortly visible,Lennart speaking:
Code:
wget \
http://ftp.heanet.ie/mirrors/fosdem-video/2013/maintracks/Janson/systemd,_Two_Years_Later.webm

If you look at discussions two years ago you'll see
Lennart has implemented some of the main points he was criticized for at that time.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 6:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ssuominen,

How much of the softening of the udev/systemd is due to the existence of eudev.
If the fork were dropped, how long before udev/systemd reverted ?

systemd users may as well use the udev thats rolled in with it but I for one don't want systemd.
I will use eudev on new installs and convert existing installs, once I have the hang of it.

To put it another way, would you buy a used car from the Red Hat udev team?
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ulenrich
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 7:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NeddySeagoon wrote:
To put it another way, would you buy a used car from the Red Hat udev team?
Strictly speaking you mean a fedora team. If you watched any of Lennarts lecture you would here about the fedora release team holding him back time after time. Not to mention the Redhat commercial team ...
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depontius
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 7:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NeddySeagoon,

If systemd weren't one package, but a half-dozen better documented packages with clean interfaces, would you feel better. I know I would.

Personally I believe the problem with systemd is that it gives the appearance of one big glom with no knobs adjustable by the ordinary user, just a big "Trust Us" written on the outside of the box.

Imagine instead, systemd-sysinit, systemd-port-manager, systemd-daemon-manager, systemd-logger, systemd-cron, etc, and the ability to cleanly substitute a properly written alternative at any point. I strongly suspect that the reality is more like that, except that it isn't broken out, and since it isn't broken out they haven't bothered to clean the interfaces between the pieces. Ironically, if they did those two things, I believe systemd would become a better piece of software - even if your not seeking alternatives for any of the pieces, simply because relying on side-effects, hidden interfaces, short-cuts and the like are generally bad practice.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 8:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think depontius has a point. But I still agree with Neddy, because competition (or even the prospect of it) does put pressure on the systemd/udev team.

What I mean is that if people start using eudev and RH sees that decoupled SW works better, is more reliable and most of all, if preferred by users/admins, it will certainly consider the design principles mentioned by depontius. Such are the laws of the market.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 8:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

depontius,

Exactly so. As I have written elsewhere on the forums, I have seen examples if vertical integration fail and be scrapped.
Its just a matter of time for systemd too, if it does not use well documented and partitioned code internally too.
If that time comes, I don't want to be a systemd user.
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