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juniper
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 12:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
mcgruff wrote:
Shooting animals should be allowed but not shooting people. [...]
The US would be a much, much better place if shooting people could only become as socially unacceptable as, er, smoking.
Shooting people is illegal AND socially unacceptable. Imagine that.


it's rather celebrated in much of pop culture. surely you have seen a movie/tv show/video game lately.
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McGruff
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 3:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's an interesting graph*.

In the US, the number of suicides using guns are about double the murders show in the graph.

Sure is lucky all those guns are there to keep folks safe otherwise they might be getting murdered by criminals and oppressed by ebil gubmints just like Europe.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 3:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcgruff wrote:
I guess it's official: libertarians don't believe in the rule of law.

???

libertarians simply believe the government must also abide by the rules. if someone is attacking me unlawfully, and i shoot him/her, there's nothing legally or ethically wrong with that, even if that person is a government official.
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Bones McCracker
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 5:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

:) This is your brain.
:D This is your brain on drugs.
:twisted: This is mcgruff's brain after authoritarian collectivist indoctrination.
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McGruff
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 6:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

And this is Austria without guns.
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Prenj
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 12:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

big dave wrote:
mcgruff wrote:
I guess it's official: libertarians don't believe in the rule of law.

???

libertarians simply believe the government must also abide by the rules. if someone is attacking me unlawfully, and i shoot him/her, there's nothing legally or ethically wrong with that, even if that person is a government official.


Herecy! The State is God Allmighty and Reigns Supreme. Party officials are demigods. They don't even die, they just move on to next level.
Like Pharaohs.
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Bones McCracker
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 12:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcgruff wrote:
And this is Austria without guns.

No, it's Australia, and the article is pretty much devoid of facts. Even if did have facts, they'd be anecdotal, because one must analyze a large and diverse population of states to know what the effects of disarming the populace are (and all attempts to do so have failed to prove anything, which says a lot given that so-called progressives are pretty good at massaging statistics to show what they want).

Australians over-reacted to an emotional situation. They need guns just as much as Americans. They've got similar wide-open spaces with low population density, wild animals, etc. Moreover, their grand-children are really going to wish their grandparents hadn't got rid of all the firearms, when the People's Liberation Army arrives to Liberate them for the good of the whole (the whole back on the Mainland, that is).
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McGruff
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 2:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
No, it's Australia, and the article is pretty much devoid of facts.


I think I can tell the difference between Austria and Australia thank you very much.

You should watch the f*ng video before you go spouting nonsense. There's a nice, juicy fact for you in there: the number of rampages dropped to zero after the gubmint started oppressing its citizens by taking some guns away.

How about that.
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flysideways
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 2:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

With 27 deaths recorded in the history of great white shark fatal attacks in Australia, the question has to be asked, is it actually worth all the fuss?

How many shooting sprees had they ever had? Proportionality?
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McGruff
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 2:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And there you have it. The pro-gun lobby in a nutshell.

"Mass shootings... who gives a fuck? I want my gun.
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Bones McCracker
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 2:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcgruff wrote:
BoneKracker wrote:
No, it's Australia, and the article is pretty much devoid of facts.


I think I can tell the difference between Austria and Australia thank you very much.

You should watch the f*ng video before you go spouting nonsense. There's a nice, juicy fact for you in there: the number of rampages dropped to zero after the gubmint started oppressing its citizens by taking some guns away.

How about that.

No they didn't; they just didn't involve firearms any more. Did the overall rate of violent crime drop? What about the rate if people successfully defending themselves from violence and crime? What happened to that? And, this is just a data point; what about all the other countries? The countries with the highest homicide rates in the world have strict gun control. There is no correlation between guns and anything, except guns. This artificial focus on firearms isn't rational, if what you're actually interested in is people's well-being. It's just authoritarian bullshit. Also, Australians may pay a high price for their defenslessness in the future.
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McGruff
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 2:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Your ass is for sitting on not talking out of
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Bones McCracker
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 3:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Like I said, there's no correlation between guns and anything but guns. Engage brain before mouth. :roll:

Knowing you, you probably need to take a moment to think about that --- what does it mean?

If you take away all black shoes, the rate of black shoe tripping incidents will go way down too, but you haven't solved anything, and you've made a lot of people barefoot.

Also, I didn't know there are only 12 developed countries in the world. :lol:
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flysideways
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 4:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcgruff wrote:
In the US, the number of suicides using guns are about double the murders show in the graph.

So now you're concerned about saving us from suicides?

The most vulnerable demographic for this is LEOs.

http://www.leotrainer.com/suicidelasdhands.pdf

Feinstein's bill does nothing to mitigate this as it exempts LEOs from the firearms restrictions.
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Old School
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 5:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcgruff wrote:
BoneKracker wrote:
No, it's Australia, and the article is pretty much devoid of facts.


I think I can tell the difference between Austria and Australia thank you very much.

You should watch the f*ng video before you go spouting nonsense. There's a nice, juicy fact for you in there: the number of rampages dropped to zero after the gubmint started oppressing its citizens by taking some guns away.

How about that.

Got some serious news for you. The United States is neither Austria or Australia.

Totally different situations.
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Bones McCracker
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 7:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

flysideways wrote:
So now you're concerned about saving us from suicides?

Guns are humane, as suicide goes. Is it better if somebody hangs themselves? Are suicide rates lower in countries with strict gun control? No. This is just another example of that same, absurdly retarded, "Take away all the black shoes and look -- no more black shoe tripping deaths!", rationale. It's not like guns cause people to commit suicide. :lol:

The level of moronic stuff that willing propaganda victims will allow into their brains never ceases to astonish me.
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wswartzendruber
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 7:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rampages went to zero in Australia? I've heard and read that everything else went through the roof.
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flysideways
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 7:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If the cure is worse than the ill, maybe you need a different cure.
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McGruff
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 7:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wswartzendruber wrote:
Rampages went to zero in Australia? I've heard and read that everything else went through the roof.


What does that even mean? Do you have any sources?
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juniper
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 8:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcgruff wrote:
wswartzendruber wrote:
Rampages went to zero in Australia? I've heard and read that everything else went through the roof.


What does that even mean? Do you have any sources?


the australian dollar did (currently trading at above 1USD). does that count? :lol:
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juniper
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 9:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Muso wrote:
Why this liberal no longer believes in gun control… (and why the “Assault weapon ban” is an ideologically-driven distraction)

Quote:
As someone who has done a complete 180 from liberal firearm skeptic and supporter of gun control to now being an ardent supporter of second amendment rights (and a responsible gun owner), I feel like I am uniquely qualified to speak to those individuals whose views I used to share. I’d like to believe I’m a reasonable and objective-minded person, and I want them to read a different perspective on gun control — one that arises from personal experience and research and is not filled with the hyperbole and mis-information we see all over television.

I feel like many people, including most liberal politicians, treat gun control like most conservatives treat sex education or climate change. Their views and thus the policies they support are based entirely on ideology, with only the most cursory attempts at studying the facts. They are blinded by confirmation bias, cherry picking factual evidence to support their foregone conclusion. This is why gun owners can find it hard to even come to the table to have the “gun control” conversation; they are convinced the other side made up their collective minds long ago and are NOT interested in an honest discussion. Many times, it seems their sole focus seems to be on restricting gun rights as much as possible, regardless of whether or not it will help to prevent tragedy. Unfortunately, after the spectacle in the media I’ve seen in the past few weeks, I’d have to agree.

But let’s back up for a moment.


More in TFA, an excellent read.


full of anecdotes. no stats. But, I do like the refreshing non "gubermint will take my guns" approach.
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Muso
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 10:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No one needs a fire extinguisher, we have the fire department.
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McGruff
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 11:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

juniper wrote:
full of anecdotes. no stats. But, I do like the refreshing non "gubermint will take my guns" approach.


It's not even genuine. "I used to be a liberal but..." "I used to believe in climate change but.." "I used to believe in medicare but..." Its just empty rhetoric.

Sophistry and lies. That's all the pro-gun crowd have. Meanwhile people die every day who should never have had to die.
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flysideways
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 11:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcgruff wrote:
Meanwhile people die every day who should never have had to die.


So the executions in Texas when Bush was president were good and appropriate, right? Or are you a catch and release proponent?
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McGruff
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 12:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not sure what you mean.
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