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sikpuppy
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 5:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

big dave wrote:
self defense is a basic human right. gun possession is a constitutional right that guarantees the basic human right of self defense.

you're the one making personal attacks here. you're attacking all minorities, including myself. the fact is that gun control is undeniably racist and you're supporting it. therefore you are a racist. don't like that? then stop being racist.

Nope, it's nothing personal. You seem to think the world is against you, that's fine, but rest assured I am far from racist. I do think it's fairly obvious that you are calling all opponents to your views racist, which as a debating technique is about as lame as they come.

I am no expert debater, but I think that once you play the race card you have lost all chance of being able to rationally argue a point. If you are trying to be witty then fine, but if you are serious then perhaps you need to calm down.
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Prenj
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 6:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sikpuppy wrote:
big dave wrote:
self defense is a basic human right. gun possession is a constitutional right that guarantees the basic human right of self defense.

you're the one making personal attacks here. you're attacking all minorities, including myself. the fact is that gun control is undeniably racist and you're supporting it. therefore you are a racist. don't like that? then stop being racist.

Nope, it's nothing personal. You seem to think the world is against you, that's fine, but rest assured I am far from racist. I do think it's fairly obvious that you are calling all opponents to your views racist, which as a debating technique is about as lame as they come.

I am no expert debater, but I think that once you play the race card you have lost all chance of being able to rationally argue a point. If you are trying to be witty then fine, but if you are serious then perhaps you need to calm down.


The way I understand his argument is not that you are directly racist, but that you are arguing for the dominating paradigm that in the essence was surpressing minorities, and as such is percieved as racist by minorities in US. Weather people are actually racist or not, or tribal, can be argued, but the fact remains that the power in todays world lies in a hands of few, and we who are not the inner circle are not convinced that we will benefit from it.

Take iPhone for example, at the end of the whole chain is the child laborer in Africa digging earth for rare minerals. In the Brave New World, some will have private trips to moon, and some will still be digging. Everybody has a voice, and their own perspective, so when we start throwing big words like morality and such, one loses the priviledge of arguing within confines of their own private bubble, but have to go all the way.

So take all of humanity into context, and ask yourself, is US government moral? Is Obama adminstration more moral then Bush administration? Independent and objective measurement criteria say otherwise, regardless of the media spin and nobel prizes.
Mcgruff is simply operating within the confines of his own information space, served to him by the media, and he cannot see the big picture since he is ignoring all the information that comes from outside that bubble.
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sikpuppy
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 6:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah. I suppose being told I am attacking minorities, that I am a racist for supporting a viewpoint and that the only way to stop being racist is to come around to the opposite viewpoint...doesn't sit well with me. There was the same argument used here for the live sheep export trade, that not allowing it was racist.
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wildhorse
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 9:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Live sheep export trade = US American gun nuts, all wrapped up in racism accusations. Great analogy. Sweet.
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flysideways
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 1:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcgruff wrote:
... there is a difference between murder and accidental death. ... (there are degrees of culpability from reckless behaviour but it does not involve a deliberate intent to kill). ...


Therein lies the rub. "a deliberate intent to kill". I understand you to mean a deliberate intent to kill is required of a being, capable of action, for any inanimate non self actualizing tool to be used as an implement of murder. Yet we demonize the tool.
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McGruff
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 2:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bizarre isn't it? Why only today I wanted to hand out some kitchen knives, scissors and swords to my toddler's playgroup but wasn't allowed.

"But swords don't stab people", I said, "toddlers do."

"Fuck off or we'll call the police!" came the angry - and frankly rather ill-mannered - reply.
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flysideways
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 4:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Right ... And Lon Horiuchi's stalker didn't discover better killing through chemistry.
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juniper
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 9:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

big dave wrote:
mcgruff wrote:
You're the only one here trying to tell people what to do.

you're telling me i can't have guns. you're telling me i shouldn't be allowed to take care of myself. you're telling me i should have to rely on racist cops for my own livelihood. you're supporting a history of racism. stop it. it's offensive.


what happens if your right to self defense puts me in danger? we recognize there is a limit to this "self defense". Presumably, you agree we shouldn't be allowed grenades and missiles (although when the war with Obama starts you will need those more than hand guns), but we ban them. Why?
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big dave
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 12:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

juniper wrote:
big dave wrote:
mcgruff wrote:
You're the only one here trying to tell people what to do.

you're telling me i can't have guns. you're telling me i shouldn't be allowed to take care of myself. you're telling me i should have to rely on racist cops for my own livelihood. you're supporting a history of racism. stop it. it's offensive.


what happens if your right to self defense puts me in danger? we recognize there is a limit to this "self defense". Presumably, you agree we shouldn't be allowed grenades and missiles (although when the war with Obama starts you will need those more than hand guns), but we ban them. Why?

when did me exercising my right to self defense put you in danger? you and i have probably never met in real life.

as far as weaponry is concerned, you grossly overestimate the US military's capabilities. in the revolutionary war, americans were grossly outgunned but we still won. in the vietnam war, the locals were also grossly outgunned, and they still won. today in the middle east, we've been fighting insurgents for what, 20 years now, and we still haven't won. furthermore, the bolt action rifles the anti-gunners are saying are okay is simply 40 year old assault rifles. they were still standard military issue until the 1970s. of course, you know that constitutional rights are stuck in a time bubble of when they were passed... that's why there's no freedom of speech on the internet, and the 4th amendment right against search and seizure doesn't apply to your computer... oh wait.

sikpuppy wrote:
big dave wrote:
self defense is a basic human right. gun possession is a constitutional right that guarantees the basic human right of self defense.

you're the one making personal attacks here. you're attacking all minorities, including myself. the fact is that gun control is undeniably racist and you're supporting it. therefore you are a racist. don't like that? then stop being racist.

Nope, it's nothing personal. You seem to think the world is against you, that's fine, but rest assured I am far from racist. I do think it's fairly obvious that you are calling all opponents to your views racist, which as a debating technique is about as lame as they come.

I am no expert debater, but I think that once you play the race card you have lost all chance of being able to rationally argue a point. If you are trying to be witty then fine, but if you are serious then perhaps you need to calm down.


gun control has an extensive history of being used as a tool to suppress blacks violently. do you agree or disagree with this statement?

the CDC and brady's numbers show that
* in brady grade A states, the black homicide rate is 18x higher than the white homicide rate
* in brady grade F states, the black homicide rate is only 5x higher than the white homicide rate
* all of the "racist southern states" are brady grade F states.
do you agree or disagree with this assertion?
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sikpuppy
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 4:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

big dave wrote:
that's why there's no freedom of speech on the internet, and the 4th amendment right against search and seizure doesn't apply to your computer... oh wait.

gun control has an extensive history of being used as a tool to suppress blacks violently. do you agree or disagree with this statement?

US constitution doesn't apply outside the US.

Don't agree since I don't see how those statistics relate to "violent suppression" of blacks. It shows more violence, but not why.
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McGruff
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 4:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Someone used a bogus statistical argument to promote gun ownership? No way!
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sikpuppy
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 4:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcgruff wrote:
Someone used a bogus statistical argument to promote gun ownership? No way!

Worse. He is trying to prove I am a racist. There's a massive assumption here that has been overlooked, but I am sure it's not important.
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juniper
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 11:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

big dave wrote:

the CDC and brady's numbers show that
* in brady grade A states, the black homicide rate is 18x higher than the white homicide rate
* in brady grade F states, the black homicide rate is only 5x higher than the white homicide rate
* all of the "racist southern states" are brady grade F states.
do you agree or disagree with this assertion?


I'd like to see a link. But as I have said before, gun control won't work if you can just drive across a state border and load up your 1 ton with guns.
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