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pjp
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 4:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

juniper wrote:
isn't the primary use a gun to kill? A cars primary use is to get you from point A to point B. But actually, in my utopia, people could still have shotguns and hunting rifles and hand guns at their gun club.
The primary use of government is to oppress and kill, so I guess we should ban government. AWESOME! I never thought I'd agree that completely with dmitchell on the elimination of government.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 1:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
juniper wrote:
isn't the primary use a gun to kill? A cars primary use is to get you from point A to point B. But actually, in my utopia, people could still have shotguns and hunting rifles and hand guns at their gun club.
The primary use of government is to oppress and kill, so I guess we should ban government. AWESOME! I never thought I'd agree that completely with dmitchell on the elimination of government.


most western govt to actually oppress or kill their own citizens (death penalty countries like yours excepted). it certainly isn't their primary use. In fact, even libertarians agree (the primary use of a minimal govt is to protect freedom and property rights).
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 2:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

steveL wrote:
AFAIC they show the world how not to do it. They bang on about liberty, which means the freedom to exploit and enslave

Now THAT's funny, coming from a European: especially (I'm guessing) a Brit. :lol:

steveL wrote:
The "constitutional right to bear arms" was actually about that originally: local militia with weapons in safe storage, such that central Government did not have the overwhelming force of arms, but States did, and then only via the local populace.

Now you're just making shit up.

steveL wrote:
[corporations] recently got the law changed so that they even have the same standing as an individual human being.

Total bullshit. What happened is that supreme court has prevented the state from violating the rights of people by claiming they are "not people" when they band together for a purpose other than government. It confirms one thing only: people are people. Authoritarian Leftists want unions to have collective rights (because, they say, unions of course are "people"), but demonize and persecute anyone associated with corporate investment or management (because corporations, on the other hand and magically, are "not people"). It's absolute Orwellian bullshit, and only a completely deluded person is unable to recognize it as such.

Also, investors are no longer only a handful of robber barons; practically every adult in the U.S. is an investor.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 3:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
juniper wrote:
isn't the primary use a gun to kill? A cars primary use is to get you from point A to point B. But actually, in my utopia, people could still have shotguns and hunting rifles and hand guns at their gun club.
The primary use of government is to oppress and kill, so I guess we should ban government. AWESOME! I never thought I'd agree that completely with dmitchell on the elimination of government.

Right! And police shouldn't carry firearms, because the only thing they're good for is shooting people.

Oh, police are different than regular people, you say? How so? Police are there to protect people? What? And regular people don't primarily want guns to protect themselves?

This authoritarian leftist movement to disarm the populace is not in the best interests of the people. It's in the interests of authoritarianism. Armed citizens are good citizens (we've got 200 million to 300 million firearms out there). The movement to disarm them is a a precursor to fucking the people in the ass (forcibly instituting radical change so unacceptable to a large number of people that they'd risk life and limb to prevent it) once they can't resist. There is no other logical reason to do it; this nonsense about taking 250,000,000 guns away from the people in order to prevent the average of 15 deaths a year in mass shootings is a deception that only an uninformed person or a compulsive masochistic submissive could buy into.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 5:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

juniper wrote:
it certainly isn't their primary use.
I disagree. Elimination of civil liberties IS oppression. I didn't restrict killing to its citizenry. So, show me a government which does not restrict civil liberties.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 6:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
steveL wrote:
AFAIC they show the world how not to do it. They bang on about liberty, which means the freedom to exploit and enslave

Now THAT's funny, coming from a European: especially (I'm guessing) a Brit. :lol:

Yeah, great argument.. as ever.

Quote:
steveL wrote:
The "constitutional right to bear arms" was actually about that originally: local militia with weapons in safe storage, such that central Government did not have the overwhelming force of arms, but States did, and then only via the local populace.

Now you're just making shit up.

No, I got it from a USian gun-nut, who used to bang on at me in much the same way as people in here do about his "God-given" right to carry weapons and shoot people. Then again, he thinks the Tea Party is a grassroots movement, not at all funded by the kleptocrats.

If it's wrong it's wrong. Obviously the framers of your constitution wanted assault-rifles available in the grocery store, and all sorts of handguns available for less than a day's wage in back-alley sales. That keeps people safe, yeah, good thinking. That was a slick move of yours, to slip in mass shooting statistics, when in fact it's the overall homicide rates, and the number of non-fatal shootings that really tell the story. Not to mention the colossal amount of resources and human energy that goes into maintaining the status-quo. Oh, and let's not forget the human cost: after all, we are human beings, still, aren't we?
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steveL wrote:
[corporations] recently got the law changed so that they even have the same standing as an individual human being.

Total bullshit. What happened is that supreme court has prevented the state from violating the rights of people by claiming they are "not people" when they band together for a purpose other than government. It confirms one thing only: people are people.

Yeah you buy into the conflation of an individual with the corporate. Sad. And the Supreme Court was just doing the right thing, it didn't cost money to get there, your legal system isn't truly for-sale, nor are your politicians really as corrupt as they seem, and no the system of pork-barrel politics is totally above-board. In fact the directors of a corporation should have collective bargaining rights, since their Constitutional rights as individuals, and the evident power-imbalance in their favour, are not enough for the poor little bunnies (think of their children! and forget about your own..)

It doesn't change that corporations have gone from 10-year charters, with no rights in and of themselves, only rights for the individuals who comprise it, to immortal entities with in fact more rights than the individual. And note, I don't have an issue with businesses: my problem is with the financial and banking system that underpins everything, but which no-one ever discusses. That's where the debt comes from, and in fact was the reason for the US Civil War, according to some: y'know the Greenback, which was a debt-free currency, credited by Benjamin Franklin as the reason for the colony's prosperity -- until the bankers in Europe put a stop to it. And now you have a Federal Reserve, that despite its name is a privately-owned institution, even though the money it prints only has any value because of the taxpayer.

So every time a single dollar is "printed" (though of course, it's even worse now since it's all computerised and thus faster, plus money doesn't get taken out of circulation like it used to, since it's just numbers in a machine) the taxpayers owe more money to the private institution and its shareholders, before they even go to the bond markets. For their own currency. It's the biggest, most blatant fraud in history, a mechanism to siphon wealth away to people who do absolutely nothing, and produce nothing, and help no-one but themselves. But they like to call themselves "wealth-generators" when in fact there's a machine behind them that's pumping out illegitimate currency.

It completely makes a nonsense of any claims to a "free" market, since one group has all the wealth behind them, and they only support others who will a) not say anything about it (when did you last hear a politician discuss this, despite it being the basis of all our money?), and b) take their cut and let the fraud continue. This has got nothing to do with nationality: we all live under this same system. "The Bank of England" is the biggest misnomer of all.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 6:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry; didn't bother reading.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 8:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
juniper wrote:
it certainly isn't their primary use.
I disagree. Elimination of civil liberties IS oppression. I didn't restrict killing to its citizenry. So, show me a government which does not restrict civil liberties.


degrees.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 10:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
Sorry; didn't bother reading.

And thus do you stay a slave to the system.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 12:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Funny you should mention slaves....
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 1:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Absolute revisionist bullshit. There are extensive correspondence and exposition documenting the genesis of the 2nd Amendment.

Typical Ministry of Truth bullshit: rewrite history to reverse its meaning. Next we'll celebrate People's Unity Day on December 25th -- the day George Washington cut down a cherry tree with which to stake his imperialist, slave-owning father in the heart and divide his land among the farm workers. :roll:
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 2:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bullshit? I think you meant to say: "thank you for the history lesson."

See the fully-referenced paper on which the article was based here: THE HIDDEN HISTORY OF THE SECOND AMENDMENT (Carl T. Bogus).
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 2:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Where's teh Peer Revyou!? :roll:

Oh, and by the way, his position is against un-permitted public ownership of handguns and magazines of excessive capacity, nothing more.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 3:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The point is that one of the driving forces for the second amendment was the desire of some states to prevent interference with their armed slave patrols - patrols which were vital to keep slaves in their place.

So next time you hear libertardian waffling about the defence against tyranny you'll know better: the second amendment deliberately supported tyranny, namely the oppression of African-American slaves and reinforced the power of the state over a disenfranchised population.

How 'bout dat.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 3:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

First I've heard of that, though it isn't shocking. Do you have any sources? I'm interested in reading how "common" that theory is, given well established precedent of defense against tyranny.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 3:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's a bit of an eye opener isn't it?

Those are the only two sources I have. The second has a whole pile of references. It seems to be a serious paper not a propaganda piece.

The idea of warrior-citizens entitled to bear arms to defend their liberty against a corrupt aristocracy was a big thing at the time (it's almost, well, communist..) and it's interesting that arm-bearing is usually explicitly restricted to respectable, "upright" citizens; it isn't for the scum. Thus, an idea proclaimed as a fundamental principle of liberty can be - and was - used to oppress socially-excluded classes who aren't entitled to bear arms.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 3:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcgruff wrote:
It's a bit of an eye opener isn't it?

Those are the only two sources I have.
Oh, "Funny you should mention slaves...." and "The Hidden History" are the sources? I hadn't read that part of the thread. I'll check them out.

I wouldn't necessarily call it an eye opener, but definitely interesting. I also don't agree that it is exclusively the justification for the existence of the 2nd Amendment. Nothing was in 100% agreement. So while there may have been groups that wanted the 2nd Amendment for that reason, there were also those that wanted it for protection from tyranny.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 4:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What government would pass a law making it easier for people to overthrow it? A really really daft one.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 4:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A government that wouldn't is one you can't trust. That said, government didn't pass a law doing so. People fighting for freedom formed a government with that protection in place. It is illegal to overthrow the government. Just as it was illegal to secede from the King. And if we had another civil war and the existing government fell, then guess what? The law saying you can't overthrow it is rather irrelevant.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 6:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

And further, that ordinarily, when called for service these men were expected to appear bearing arms supplied by themselves and of the kind in common use at the time.

I know certain people want to deny any thought of Western Civilization but the concept of an Assize of Arms predates travel to the new world. The constitutions of various colonies, northern too, also defined the upper age for militia obligation to be well above any normal average life expectancy.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 6:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
I also don't agree that it is exclusively the justification for the existence of the 2nd Amendment. Nothing was in 100% agreement. So while there may have been groups that wanted the 2nd Amendment for that reason, there were also those that wanted it for protection from tyranny.

It wasn't even one of the major reasons for it. This guy is a gun control activist, who, in the days following the last mass shooting incident, wrote multiple letters to Joe Biden telling him what to do and how to do it. He's blowing the significance of what he's found way out of proportion and completely ignoring all of the other dialog that was going on about the subject. With respect to this issue, he's a revisionist.

mcgruff knows it's bullshit, he's just being a troll
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 6:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sikpuppy wrote:
What government would pass a law making it easier for people to overthrow it? A really really daft one.

No, one being created from scratch specifically as a limited central government of specifically restricted authority. A government being created by a group of men who had just got done leading a rebellion against an oppressive, imperialist monarchy.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 6:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
mcgruff knows it's bullshit, he's just being a troll


History is trolling now..?! That's quite an ignorant thing to say.

The amendment specifically addresses fears about federal interference with slave patrol militias. That's how the word "state" got there rather than "country", as in an earlier draft.

The libertarianism they practiced was, er, nuanced: liberty if you're one of us; tyranny if you're not.

It wasn't just the African slaves either. Native Americans were ruthlessly slaughtered in the push west. Once again, the gun was an instrument of oppression not liberty and freedom.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 6:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
mcgruff knows it's bullshit, he's just being a troll


He actually might believe that revisionist bullshit.

mcgruff wrote:
The amendment specifically addresses fears about federal interference with slave patrol militias. That's how the word "state" got there rather than "country", as in an earlier draft.


Um, no. Free state meaning a free state of being.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 6:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcgruff wrote:
BoneKracker wrote:
mcgruff knows it's bullshit, he's just being a troll


History is trolling now..?! That's quite an ignorant thing to say.

History, which I dare say I know more about than you, is not trolling. YOU are trolling.

Also, revisionist propaganda is not "history". Some of the participants our country's early democracy had slavery-centric economic concerns. It was one of many factors that entered into the discussion pertaining to the 2nd amendment. It was not, however, the driving force behind it's creation or the principle concern that led to its specific wording. Anybody claiming such is being intellectually dishonest, and misrepresenting the facts. One need only delve into the primary resources one's self to see that, or consult any one of the many other secondary sources not bent on re-writing history.

That's all there is to say about it.
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