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mv
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 5:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DaggyStyle wrote:
you might be amazed how much it helps to understand what the hell is going on.

You understand even more with eix -vl: Removing dbus from thunar avoids all your problems.
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Anon-E-moose
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 8:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wcg wrote:
Here is thunar's "emerge -Dp thunar" list, without udev in USE flags
on one system:

*package list removed*

Even without the *kits, there is still a lot of "gnome chrome" there that I don't want
to see showing up in "emerge -DuNp world" output whenever it is updated.

Incidentally, what exactly does the gudev USE flag do?


Gudev pulls in glib according to the udev ebuild.

As mv said remove the dbus flag, a cursory look at the thunar ebuild tells you what it pulls in.

Good luck
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DaggyStyle
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 7:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mv wrote:
DaggyStyle wrote:
you might be amazed how much it helps to understand what the hell is going on.

You understand even more with eix -vl: Removing dbus from thunar avoids all your problems.

interesting, I'll try eix -vl when I'll get home.
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ssuominen
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 10:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mv wrote:
DaggyStyle wrote:
you might be amazed how much it helps to understand what the hell is going on.

You understand even more with eix -vl: Removing dbus from thunar avoids all your problems.


Right.

It's purposely a bit hard to disable GVfs and co. from Thunar to make the user acknowledge he is entering to unsupported setup and crippled file manager.
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llemikebyw
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 5:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I haven't had time to undertake all the testing I need to do based on comments here. I also checked KDE's own requirements to see what could be dropped and udev isn't actually a necessary dependency (as has been mentioned here) - but yes - I know - I'd lose certain functionality... currently...

My first posting was born of my concern that if I don't act quickly I'll be forced to use the desktop/Distribution setup I have least desire of using... what I describe as "Sheeple-Linux" i.e. a product where users/administrators/developers simply have to accept the architecture that self-declared Great Gods have deemed the final solution... (Apologies for any offence - I understand it is nothing like as serious as THAT version which remains a stain on all humanity and utterly deplorable).

However, I track certain discussions elsewhere (we all do, don't we?) and it appears that my decision to go *kit-less (or at least Fedora-u*|*kit-less) is none too soon. The desire of developers now bought in to GnomeOS-architecture surely is not to encourage diversity but to gradually eradicate all non-gnome desktops by gradually breaking each competing desktop using little tweaks that "simply work" with gnome but if you use Xfce, say, well - don't...

systemd is introduced as a system-init process to initiate other processes but now incorporates udev as part of the source code, consolekit has been replaced by systemd-logind and now it appears systemd is incorporating ("getting involved" in) certain upower functionality...

See this comment from somebody using Xfce on openSuSE describing breakage introduced through new systemd functionality: http://marc.info/?l=opensuse-factory&m=135833029902967&w=2

The replies from the openSuSE systemd-proponents are fairly revealing...

The Maintainer: http://marc.info/?l=opensuse-factory&m=135833481904823&w=2
systemd-fan: http://marc.info/?l=opensuse-factory&m=135833636005339&w=2
systemd-fan: http://marc.info/?l=opensuse-factory&m=135834340708315&w=2

When pressed about breakage Cristian is most diplomatic:

http://marc.info/?l=opensuse-factory&m=135834357008410&w=2

and

http://marc.info/?l=opensuse-factory&m=135836857320981&w=2

Ah - the joy of Linux-camaraderie and open choice...

Disappointingly, whether the openSuSE maintainers/developers realise it or not they are not far from full assimilation... they now effectively run GnomeOS/Fedora.

I'll report back on my developing GENTOO setup later.
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Dominique_71
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 10:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OpenSuse is the development version of Suse (not to confound with suze, a French liquor 8) ). I have been using Suze for years, and if it is a very good distribution, one of the best, soon or later you will be in great trouble because of some obscure and non documented feature specific to Suse. You will get the same headache than when you are drinking too much suze. :evil:

I don't know if this is wanted, but Suse is a commercial distribution that want you to buy some service from them. The same is true for many other distributions including Fedora, which is the development version of redhat.

The first main reason why I do prefer non commercial distributions like Gentoo or Debian is because everything specific to the distribution is documented (more or less depending on your arch).

The major clients of the commercial distributions are big and paranoid companies. As they don't trust their working forces, they need the functionalities of policykit. Just the name is telling the whole story : its about a cop into the system. In fact, this is not a simple cop, but one of the worst kind, this is a fully multitasking cop.

And like with a real cop, we cannot trust him because if a real cop follow its orders regardless of the word, polkit is so complicated and unmanageable than it can be learnt, and as workaround we have to learn java-script. But java-script is not polkit.

So, it is a real conflict of interest here, a conflict between the interests of all non commercial or small linux users, and the interests of the big paranoid companies. In a better world, polkit would be a shot in the foot of these companies, and they would disregard it themselves. But we are living here and now, not in some hypothetical future of the most than perfect.
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ssuominen
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 10:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've said it before and I'll say it again, I'm not letting ConsoleKit die and if polkit stops supporting it, I'll rename the last supporting one as polkit-legacy and keep them working for Xfce long as I can.

I'm quite sure Xfce upstream has no plans whatsoever in removing ConsoleKit support but instead add systemd-logind support as an alternative.

http://cgit.freedesktop.org/ConsoleKit/log/
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steveL
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 1:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice thread, llemikebyw. I found this post quite amusing:
js wrote:
What the heck is the reason of merging udev and maintaining it in a way it can be built separately from systemd? Why it is in the systemd repo in the first place, it makes no sense at all. It's like merging KDE and Xorg and saying we have it one place, hooray!

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VoidMage
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 2:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@ssuominen: just curious: do you have any plans regarding moving consolekit from dbus-glib to gdbus ? Would you be interested in patches going in that direction ?
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ssuominen
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 3:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

VoidMage wrote:
@ssuominen: just curious: do you have any plans regarding moving consolekit from dbus-glib to gdbus ? Would you be interested in patches going in that direction ?


Of course we are intrested. Please use the freedesktop.org bugzilla and attach your patches there. I need to talk with the Debian maintainer who has the current commit access to the repository,
and has been pushing my patches for now to give direct access for me too. I wanted to make a new release too based off from current git master and then start accepting new fundamental
patches.
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