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juniper
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 10:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Old School wrote:
juniper wrote:
Old School wrote:
Dr.Willy wrote:
European states have a lot of dept and high unemployment rates. So does the US. Too much socialism everywhere?

Congratulations! You just stumbled into a truism.


two european economies are doing pretty well

country 1

deficit/surplus: -2%
debt: 40% GDP
unemployment: 6%

country 2

deficit/surplus: +0.1%
debt: 40% GDP
unemployment: 7.5%

who are these rocksters? denmark and sweden.

With a homogeneous population less than a major US city.


Surprising factoids.

Foreign born population Sweden: 14.9%

Foreign born population US: 13%

Whether or not accurate, sweden isn't as homogeneous as you think. Granted, many are from Finland, but close to 10% are from outside the EU (same link above). They take in large numbers of refugees (second, third and fourth national origins are yugoslavia, iraq and iran).

In any case, I am not sure where you are going with that. The richest (by far) parts of canada, and possibly the US and Britain are the most diverse.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 4:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
aidanjt wrote:
BoneKracker wrote:
Dr.Willy wrote:
European states have a lot of dept and high unemployment rates. So does the US. Too much socialism everywhere?

Here's the equivalent of your logic: rats stink, and rats are rodents; the moldy cheese in my refrigerator stinks too, therefore rodents live in my refrigerator!

More like 1=1. There's little difference worth talking about between the US and the EU, in both economic properties and circumstance.

If so, then why are Europeans always criticizing the U.S. and acting like they are superior?

Because Americans do the exact same thing in reverse?
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 4:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
Dr.Willy wrote:
BoneKracker wrote:
That's a strawman.

I'm happy to see that you at least put some thought into other peoples' posts.

I did, as obviously demonstrated in the rest of that paragraph, which you redacted from your quote (you know, the part where I explained why it was a strawman).

Dr.Willy wrote:
BoneKracker wrote:
There is such a thing as "too socialist", however, and the public education systems of Europe have spend the last half-century telling Europe's children otherwise -- that socialism is some kind of Garden of Eden, rather than an economic philosophy from which some necessary evils can be tolerated (despite the fact that they reduce overall economic prosperity and lead to systematic violation of individual rights) in order to establish a temporary safety net for the unfortunate and an acceptable minimum standard of living for the incapable.

Well lets see.
There is such a thing as "too socialist". You will find that there is a "too much" version of any political ideology.
Now Europe is "too socialist". Based on what observations? Relative to which fix-point?

All explained above. Did you just stop reading and knee-jerk when you got to the words "too socialist"?

Dr.Willy wrote:
European states have a lot of dept and high unemployment rates. So does the US. Too much socialism everywhere?

Here's the equivalent of your logic: rats stink, and rats are rodents; the moldy cheese in my refrigerator stinks too, therefore rodents live in my refrigerator!

You think im knee-jerking? No. Im face-palming.
My logic is flawed? What? Are you serious?
There isn't even a base for a discussion here. Someone pulls shit out of his ass and concludes that it supports his point of view. Then another guy could pull different shit out of his ass and conclude that it supports another point of view.
And then after three pages of "discussion" the result is that drawing conclusions from shit just doesn't do anything.
4 posts and counting, I'm still waiting for anyone to realise that.
But please, point out how I'm not properly drawing conclusions.

Reminds me of that philosophy student that I once argued with. He kept pointing out all the logical flaws I made during the discussion when neither of us had any facts to begin with. Fun times.
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Prenj
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 5:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Meh. Middle-aged white people defending the paradigm that kept them on top of the food chain. Trying to convince the world of the righteousness of their cause on internet. Ego trying to get its rocks off by winning a debate on obscure forums, ok we all do it.

Since I don't feel I have affinity to go either way, as in my misguided ways I just think people should drop consumerism and capitalist faggotry, I've searched the web for fresh take on Obama vs Romney, without all the usual bullshit about debt and economics (both suck and are sucking corporate dick anyway), so here it is...

Tranny has a point.

Surprisingly, a 20-something year old tranny makes stronger argument that most of the bollocks you can read in other places :lol:
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 6:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

juniper wrote:
The richest (by far) parts of canada, and possibly the US and Britain are the most diverse.

Untrue. Only if you selectively draw your "parts", for example considering a whole city as a "part" rather than the wealthy portions of it.

Sweden keeps most of its foreign-born in ghettos. They have extremely high unemployment rates and live, for the most part, on the dole. Your creative accounting would ignore (or conceal) this fact by rolling those ghettos into the cities they are parts of (e.g., Malmo).
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 6:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Prenj wrote:

Tranny has a point.

Surprisingly, a 20-something year old tranny makes stronger argument that most of the bollocks you can read in other places :lol:


:lol: <tear/> so awesome. really.

my guess would be that a large percentage of peeps that voted for Romney would disagree with absolutely everything about that video. from the text content, to the person herself and ... everything else. most wouldn't even listen to the words, in disgust, over the other characteristics of whats going on in that video.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 6:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dr.Willy wrote:
BoneKracker wrote:
Dr.Willy wrote:
BoneKracker wrote:
That's a strawman.

I'm happy to see that you at least put some thought into other peoples' posts.

I did, as obviously demonstrated in the rest of that paragraph, which you redacted from your quote (you know, the part where I explained why it was a strawman).

Dr.Willy wrote:
BoneKracker wrote:
There is such a thing as "too socialist", however, and the public education systems of Europe have spend the last half-century telling Europe's children otherwise -- that socialism is some kind of Garden of Eden, rather than an economic philosophy from which some necessary evils can be tolerated (despite the fact that they reduce overall economic prosperity and lead to systematic violation of individual rights) in order to establish a temporary safety net for the unfortunate and an acceptable minimum standard of living for the incapable.

Well lets see.
There is such a thing as "too socialist". You will find that there is a "too much" version of any political ideology.
Now Europe is "too socialist". Based on what observations? Relative to which fix-point?

All explained above. Did you just stop reading and knee-jerk when you got to the words "too socialist"?

Dr.Willy wrote:
European states have a lot of dept and high unemployment rates. So does the US. Too much socialism everywhere?

Here's the equivalent of your logic: rats stink, and rats are rodents; the moldy cheese in my refrigerator stinks too, therefore rodents live in my refrigerator!

You think im knee-jerking? No. Im face-palming.
My logic is flawed? What? Are you serious?
There isn't even a base for a discussion here. Someone pulls shit out of his ass and concludes that it supports his point of view. Then another guy could pull different shit out of his ass and conclude that it supports another point of view.
And then after three pages of "discussion" the result is that drawing conclusions from shit just doesn't do anything.
4 posts and counting, I'm still waiting for anyone to realise that.
But please, point out how I'm not properly drawing conclusions.

Reminds me of that philosophy student that I once argued with. He kept pointing out all the logical flaws I made during the discussion when neither of us had any facts to begin with. Fun times.

My posts have been full of facts. I started out with a fact-filled article about Eurozone unemployment being at an all-time high of 11.8%. Then, when somebody else said, "More welfare!", I added another fact: people in socialist Venezuala are annually blockading supermarkets in demand of months' of free food. Then I added the fact that the Obama Administration isn't doing as much as previous administrations to reduce government waste.

Meanwhile, you have made several confrontational posts, which have been entirely devoid of fact other than to point out that the U.S. also has "high unemployment" (ignoring the fact that U.S. unemployment is fully one-third lower than the Eurozone's). And now you're whining in vague generalities, about facts. :?

Sounds like cognitive dissonance to me.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 9:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
juniper wrote:
The richest (by far) parts of canada, and possibly the US and Britain are the most diverse.

Untrue. Only if you selectively draw your "parts", for example considering a whole city as a "part" rather than the wealthy portions of it.

Sweden keeps most of its foreign-born in ghettos. They have extremely high unemployment rates and live, for the most part, on the dole. Your creative accounting would ignore (or conceal) this fact by rolling those ghettos into the cities they are parts of (e.g., Malmo).


take a part with all its diversity. ghettos are parts of cities.

People flock to wealthy cities. The cause and effect is most certainly backwards (wealthy cities attract diversity, not the other way around). I was just highlighting his point is flawed.

Have you been to sweden? I have been to a swedish ghetto. It can get worse. But it doesn't change the fact that it isn't as homogeneous as thought.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 9:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

juniper wrote:
Old School wrote:
juniper wrote:
Old School wrote:
Dr.Willy wrote:
European states have a lot of dept and high unemployment rates. So does the US. Too much socialism everywhere?

Congratulations! You just stumbled into a truism.


two european economies are doing pretty well

country 1

deficit/surplus: -2%
debt: 40% GDP
unemployment: 6%

country 2

deficit/surplus: +0.1%
debt: 40% GDP
unemployment: 7.5%

who are these rocksters? denmark and sweden.

With a homogeneous population less than a major US city.


Surprising factoids.

Foreign born population Sweden: 14.9%

Foreign born population US: 13%

Whether or not accurate, sweden isn't as homogeneous as you think. Granted, many are from Finland, but close to 10% are from outside the EU (same link above). They take in large numbers of refugees (second, third and fourth national origins are yugoslavia, iraq and iran).

In any case, I am not sure where you are going with that. The richest (by far) parts of canada, and possibly the US and Britain are the most diverse.

You are talking foreign born. I'm talking the whole population. The US is basically 50% white, and 50% other. I very much doubt Denmark and Sweden come close to matching those numbers. Both are small, lily white populations with very little ethnic strife.
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juniper
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 10:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Old School wrote:

You are talking foreign born. I'm talking the whole population. The US is basically 50% white, and 50% other. I very much doubt Denmark and Sweden come close to matching those numbers. Both are small, lily white populations with very little ethnic strife.


But recent immigrants are an issue, no? I mean, who cares about some chinese who came years ago?

Your ethnic strife has a particular history. In any care, are you really going to blame country economics on that?
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 10:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
My posts have been full of facts. I started out with a fact-filled article about Eurozone unemployment being at an all-time high of 11.8%.

Nothing wrong with that.

BoneKracker wrote:
Then, when somebody else said, "More welfare!", I added another fact: people in socialist Venezuala are annually blockading supermarkets in demand of months' of free food. Then I added the fact that the Obama Administration isn't doing as much as previous administrations to reduce government waste.

And here's where the stupid starts.
Of course Muso doesn't have anything to say other than "Welfare is bad, mkay" and people in socialist Uruguay are annually blockading supermarkets. Good.
We're still talking about unemployment in Europe, I think?
Oh and there is Obama. Long time no see, Mr. President.

Question of the day: What does unemployment in Europe have in common with people in socialist Chile annually blockading supermarkets and Obama?
Answer: socialism. Let's discuss how socialism is the root cause of whatever problems they have.

Oh I see we already found a participant: juniper brought his own interesting facts. Too bad Denmark an Sweden have nothing to do with Obama or people in socialist Peru annually blockading supermarkets. It is a knee-jerk of course; one that you probably well know about, because I don't know how often he has brought up either of these countries whenever the topic was how bad socialism was. Ironically it's the first set of facts you could actually discuss here.
Why? Because both countries actually relate to Europe's unemployment rate.

BoneKracker wrote:
Meanwhile, you have made several confrontational posts, which have been entirely devoid of fact other than to point out that the U.S. also has "high unemployment" (ignoring the fact that U.S. unemployment is fully one-third lower than the Eurozone's). And now you're whining in vague generalities, about facts. :?

Ohhhh, those 4 words really caught your attention, didn't they. I mean, not only did you analyze the logic behind the statement, you also found it important to point out that US unemployment is a third lower than the crisis ridden Eurozone.

…I am happy to see that. Reminds me that studying psychology is still something I want to do at some point in my life.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 2:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

juniper wrote:
BoneKracker wrote:
juniper wrote:
The richest (by far) parts of canada, and possibly the US and Britain are the most diverse.

Untrue. Only if you selectively draw your "parts", for example considering a whole city as a "part" rather than the wealthy portions of it.

Sweden keeps most of its foreign-born in ghettos. They have extremely high unemployment rates and live, for the most part, on the dole. Your creative accounting would ignore (or conceal) this fact by rolling those ghettos into the cities they are parts of (e.g., Malmo).


take a part with all its diversity. ghettos are parts of cities.

People flock to wealthy cities. The cause and effect is most certainly backwards (wealthy cities attract diversity, not the other way around). I was just highlighting his point is flawed.

Have you been to sweden? I have been to a swedish ghetto. It can get worse. But it doesn't change the fact that it isn't as homogeneous as thought.

And cities are parts of countries. I'm not sure what you were trying to say here, but you've provided no logically coherent substantiation for your claim that Sweden is more homogeneous than thought. The vast majority of Sweden's foreign-born are packed into a handful of ethnic enclaves. You're trying to claim that a black spot on a white cat makes it gray, and that's simply not true.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 10:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:

And cities are parts of countries. I'm not sure what you were trying to say here, but you've provided no logically coherent substantiation for your claim that Sweden is more homogeneous than thought. The vast majority of Sweden's foreign-born are packed into a handful of ethnic enclaves. You're trying to claim that a black spot on a white cat makes it gray, and that's simply not true.


1) simply because they live in enclaves does not mean they are not there in large numbers. I assume you have been to many americans cities. Hardly a plum pudding model of social mixing.

2) handful? non finns comprise approximately 1 million of the population (out of 8 or 9). That doesn't include non natives born in sweden.

It isn't america. But it isn't homogeneous either. But more to the point, what does that have to do with their economic performance?
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 11:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Their economic performance has nothing to do with segregation. Segregation is the result of economic paradigm, not the other way around. If it wasn't immigrants, they would be segregated along some other line, as long as you have economic paradigm that is based on exploiter-exploited relationship.

Stockholm is great example of it. It used to be divided (and I mean divided, with tolls) in aristocratic and worker quarters. Everything beyond "tull" was worker quarters, so you have parts of the city still called Norrtull, Hornstull, etc etc.

The only reason that the segregation along ethnic lines exists is once you had enough immigrants, native swedes of lower status could go "let them be exploited, I wanna own a business" where aristocrats said "ok", and former poor buggers became upper middle class. Now the economy is such that they are no longer upper middle class unless they actually own a business, but the sense of distinguishment drives them not to mix with "those of lower caste", not because they hate foreigners per se, but because it would mean acknowledgement of the loss of status. So they will glady spread their bumcheeks to live in city among the patricians, and pretend they are something, which in itself fuels the exploatation paradigm even further.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 1:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Or maybe it just that meltin' pot theories of the late XX century were just a failure, immigration without integration = segregation.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 3:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

juniper wrote:
BoneKracker wrote:

And cities are parts of countries. I'm not sure what you were trying to say here, but you've provided no logically coherent substantiation for your claim that Sweden is more homogeneous than thought. The vast majority of Sweden's foreign-born are packed into a handful of ethnic enclaves. You're trying to claim that a black spot on a white cat makes it gray, and that's simply not true.


1) simply because they live in enclaves does not mean they are not there in large numbers.

I never said it did. I'm simply saying their not "more homogenous than thought". So now you're trying to say they're also less diverse than thought?

juniper wrote:
2) handful? non finns comprise approximately 1 million of the population (out of 8 or 9). That doesn't include non natives born in sweden.

What does the number of people have to do with the number of enclaves (which is what "handful" referred to)? You usually put more thought into your posts.

juniper wrote:
It isn't america. But it isn't homogeneous either. But more to the point, what does that have to do with their economic performance?

You're the one who brought that up, talking about how "the richest parts of countries are the most diverse" (apparently trying to imply that diversity causes prosperity), one post after mentioning Sweden as an example of a socialist country with a healthy economy. I then merely raised the fact that most of Sweden's foreign-born are packed into a handful of ethnic enclaves, largely unemployed and living on the dole. Now you're asking me what homogeneity/diversity has to do with the economic performance of countries?
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 3:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:

You're the one who brought that up, talking about how "the richest parts of countries are the most diverse" (apparently trying to imply that diversity causes prosperity), one post after mentioning Sweden as an example of a socialist country with a healthy economy. I then merely raised the fact that most of Sweden's foreign-born are packed into a handful of ethnic enclaves, largely unemployed and living on the dole. Now you're asking me what homogeneity/diversity has to do with the economic performance of countries?


I only brought up the diversity thing because old school did. I also explained that it is likely the opposite: diversity follows prosperity, which fuels more prosperity. About enclaves: that doesn't make it not homogeneous. I also don't know where you got your dole stat from.

But, in the first instance, I too was responding to a claim about diversity and economy. I didn't bring it up.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 3:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

erm67 wrote:
Or maybe it just that meltin' pot theories of the late XX century were just a failure, immigration without integration = segregation.

With the exception of the African-American sub-culture, the U.S. has generally acted as a melting pot, with fairly efficient assimilation and integration. There have been exceptions to this, particularly during massive waves of immigration from particular countries (e.g., Ireland, Italy, etc.). This is why I believe that controlling the rate of immigration is important.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 4:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
erm67 wrote:
Or maybe it just that meltin' pot theories of the late XX century were just a failure, immigration without integration = segregation.

With the exception of the African-American sub-culture, the U.S. has generally acted as a melting pot, with fairly efficient assimilation and integration. There have been exceptions to this, particularly during massive waves of immigration from particular countries (e.g., Ireland, Italy, etc.). This is why I believe that controlling the rate of immigration is important.


they were once problems. But now the I-americans are pretty much integrated.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 5:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

erm67 wrote:
Or maybe it just that meltin' pot theories of the late XX century were just a failure, immigration without integration = segregation.


Depends on what integration is. In sweden, integration means becoming swedish so that natives cannot distinguish you from themselves. Everything else, they poke you (or worse).

If integration is like in US, meaning get educated, get a job, respect others and don't make a mess, it's easy.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 6:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Prenj wrote:


Depends on what integration is. In sweden, integration means becoming swedish so that natives cannot distinguish you from themselves.


More or less like everywhere, if you don't like Swedish why did you immigrate there? Is it really wrong for people you dislike to dislike you?

Prenj wrote:

If integration is like in US, meaning get educated, get a job, respect others and don't make a mess, it's easy.


More likely you'll become like the jersey shore guys than educated :-)
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 6:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
erm67 wrote:
Or maybe it just that meltin' pot theories of the late XX century were just a failure, immigration without integration = segregation.

With the exception of the African-American sub-culture, the U.S. has generally acted as a melting pot, with fairly efficient assimilation and integration. There have been exceptions to this, particularly during massive waves of immigration from particular countries (e.g., Ireland, Italy, etc.). This is why I believe that controlling the rate of immigration is important.

Distance play(ed) a big role in the case of European immigration to the Americas.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 6:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

erm67 wrote:

Prenj wrote:

If integration is like in US, meaning get educated, get a job, respect others and don't make a mess, it's easy.


More likely you'll become like the jersey shore guys than educated :-)


Well, not every immigrant is an italian, some actually work and get an education.

:wink:
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 6:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

juniper wrote:
Old School wrote:

You are talking foreign born. I'm talking the whole population. The US is basically 50% white, and 50% other. I very much doubt Denmark and Sweden come close to matching those numbers. Both are small, lily white populations with very little ethnic strife.


But recent immigrants are an issue, no? I mean, who cares about some chinese who came years ago?

Your ethnic strife has a particular history. In any care, are you really going to blame country economics on that?

I'm blaming an urban entitlement mentality on that. Where education is looked down upon. Where 76% of gun crime in the US stems from Black and Hispanic gang banging and the War on Drugs.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 6:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Old School wrote:
I'm blaming an urban entitlement mentality on that. Where education is looked down upon.
That is a fair description of the average voter in the USA.
Perhaps BK wants to make another comment about scientists. :lol:
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