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sikpuppy
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 2:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
sikpuppy wrote:
Is demonstrating a lawful use for a firearm beyond anything mentioned in your legal system?

This sentence is pretty muddled, but if you mean what I think you mean, the answer is no.

Yeah, sorry, we just had a 43 C day here (110 F) and in adjusting a statement as a question it ceased to make sense mainly because of my parboiled brain. But you made sense of it anyway, so that's ok.
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wswartzendruber
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 3:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some states require that you justify carrying a legally concealed weapon.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 4:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

big dave wrote:
sikpuppy wrote:
big dave wrote:
sikpuppy wrote:
pjp wrote:
Proving once again the police are not for protection. In fact, there is legal precedent indicating such.

So, "to protect and serve" is bollocks then. What with that and "in God we trust" there seems to be a lot of slogans that are bollocks in the US.

police have no legal duty to protect you. in fact, they can be reckless and completely lie to you that help is on the way. you still cannot sue them. this alone should be sufficient to warrant the 2nd amendment.

That court case is bizarre as described in Wiki.

I don't understand how the right to be armed would have helped anyone in that case except the criminals.

Is demonstrating a lawful use for a firearm beyond anything mentioned in your legal system?

bizarre doesn't change the fact that these exact scenarios have happened multiple times... in fact, these cases resulting in lawsuits alone are more common than mass murders. even more don't result in lawsuits. people call for police assistance, and many times they don't come for hours or even until later in the week. in other cases, cops say they're coming and never even arrive.

this happened in DC when and where firearms were completely banned. how could the victims been helped? they lived in a city where they relied on the government alone for help. it would have been illegal for the victims to shoot the men who raped and tortured them while the police said they were on the way but did nothing.

the government is not going to protect you. the government should never be allowed to prevent you from protecting yourself.

Well said.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 4:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wswartzendruber wrote:
Some states require that you justify carrying a legally concealed weapon.

Worse yet, that requirement to justify it has been perverted into a de-facto policy of banning them. Some states have this requirement, and it's enough that you fill in a block on the form with the words "Needed for personal protection." Other states will reject all such requests (for example, from a woman or elderly person afraid of home invasion or who has to travel through a crime-ridden area) as being insufficiently justified, unless the applicant is part of the good ole boy network (e.g., former local official, businessman who contributes to local politicians, people who know the judge, etc.). In other states (New York, for example), the process is taken out of local hands entirely and handled by state with ruthless prejudice; the law says you can carry a concealed weapon (subject to so many restrictions its rather impracticable to do so), but it's extremely unlikely you're going to get a permit to do so.

In this way, they can claim to be complying with the Constitutional requirement that citizens be permitted to carry weapons, while the reality is the opposite.

Also, have you ever wondered what would happen if you went about town wearing a sword? You'd probably end up lying face down on the sidewalk with a dozen SWAT officers drawing a bead on you and just itching to pull the trigger. Carry a hunting knife on your belt, and you'll likely have somebody call the cops on you, and then have an armed officer demand you place it on the ground.

I saw a big article in Time the other day pretending to be objective but clearly (to me) making an egregiously biased case for gun control. They showed a map of the world, with the U.S. in red, and all the other countries is various shades of green (a couple amber), claiming the U.S. is out of sync with the rest of the world on gun control. The U.S., it says, has a far higher per capita rate of firearm homicide than other modern countries. ZOMG the sky is falling! How embarrassing; if only the ignorant rednecks understood facts and math!

What they didn't show was a map showing that we have pretty much the same per capita homicide rate and a lower violent crime rate than average, despite having an estimated 200 to 300 million privately-owned firearms in the country (think about that). They try, using deceptive and anecdotal evidence to make the case that availability of firearms causes violent crime and deaths. They ignore the well-established fact that all rigorous studies into the matter have repeatedly shown there is no correlation between gun ownership and homicide, violence, or crime.

Yet the drones of the left, who THINK they are liberals and champions of individual and human rights have been hoodwinked into campaigning, many with great emotion, for their own population to be disarmed by the state. It makes me sick.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sikpuppy wrote:
Is demonstrating a lawful use for a firearm beyond anything mentioned in your legal system?
Self-defense is demonstrated regularly among the free states.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

juniper wrote:
The article's title is "City's first homicide". Surely, someone was hurt.
Security prevented him from hurting anyone.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 4:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Homeowner successfully defends self and family, criminals unfortunately survive.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 1:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
Homeowner successfully defends self and family, criminals unfortunately survive.

Yeah, but that's not interesting enough for national headlines, because it doesn't further the authoritarian left-wing agenda.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 1:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
pjp wrote:
Homeowner successfully defends self and family, criminals unfortunately survive.

Yeah, but that's not interesting enough for national headlines, because it doesn't further the authoritarian left-wing agenda.


seems like it wasn't even interesting enough for the locals (it got about 4 lines of ink).
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 3:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

juniper wrote:
BoneKracker wrote:
pjp wrote:
Homeowner successfully defends self and family, criminals unfortunately survive.

Yeah, but that's not interesting enough for national headlines, because it doesn't further the authoritarian left-wing agenda.


seems like it wasn't even interesting enough for the locals (it got about 4 lines of ink).

Liberal media don't want to support what they feel to be the "wrong message".

Also not worthy of coverage by national news media (despite being reported by the AP news syndicate):
Quote:
Noe said the slaying has upset the community.

"It's awful," he said.

Police responding late Sunday to a report of a disturbance said they found Potter near a burning car and two nearby apartments on fire. A police report says officers saw Potter throw two objects at witnesses that were later determined to be human arms.

http://www.ksla.com/story/20532594/police-suspect-threw-murder-victims-arms-at-witnesses

It's a spectacular, horrific story -- just the type opportunistic, sensationalist news organizations love. So why isn't the national news media fapping all over it? Because it's a knife murder. No guns. Only gun murders happen, and guns are responsible for all thing bad. If we start talking about other kinds of murders right when people have the red ass about gun control, they might start thinking for themselves that, "hey, maybe guns aren't the problem".
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 3:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think you need a splash of cold water. you have 15,000 or so homicides a year, which puts it at around 40 a day. many go unreported in the national news.

not every shooting is reported in the national media. Usually, it's when 20 kids or so get murdered.

sorry to quote myself, but just so we have the numbers straight, you have to multiply homicides by 2 to get total gun deaths in the US (yup, you have about 30,000 gun deaths in the US).


Last edited by juniper on Thu Jan 10, 2013 4:15 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 12:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

juniper wrote:
I think you need a splash of cold water. you have 15,000 or so homicides a year, which puts it at around 40 a day. many go unreported in the national news.

not every shooting is reported in the national media. Usually, it's when 20 kids or so get murdered.

I think you need a boot deep in your desperately rationalizing ass. When somebody does something as shocking and sensational as hurling the dismembered arms of their victim at witnesses, it gets reported. The only possible explanation is that it was deliberately suppressed. Why is a matter of conjecture. I say it's because right now they want guns to be the root of all evil. They're talking about Obama by-passing Congress and using some kind of authoritarian executive privilege to force-feed worse gun restrictions.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 1:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

juniper wrote:
I think you need a splash of cold water. you have 15,000 or so homicides a year, which puts it at around 40 a day. many go unreported in the national news.

not every shooting is reported in the national media. Usually, it's when 20 kids or so get murdered.
juniper wrote:
seems like it wasn't even interesting enough for the locals (it got about 4 lines of ink).
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: Priceless.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 1:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank the Constitution, she had a gun. Note the part about the chase (for those who think people should flee at all costs and do nothing to defend themselves).
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 1:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thankfully, she had a machete. I've got an idea... why don't we just legislate against assault, b&e and trespassing? Seems like that would solve these problems.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 11:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
juniper wrote:
I think you need a splash of cold water. you have 15,000 or so homicides a year, which puts it at around 40 a day. many go unreported in the national news.

not every shooting is reported in the national media. Usually, it's when 20 kids or so get murdered.

I think you need a boot deep in your desperately rationalizing ass. When somebody does something as shocking and sensational as hurling the dismembered arms of their victim at witnesses, it gets reported. The only possible explanation is that it was deliberately suppressed. Why is a matter of conjecture. I say it's because right now they want guns to be the root of all evil. They're talking about Obama by-passing Congress and using some kind of authoritarian executive privilege to force-feed worse gun restrictions.


I would say a little more evidence would be nice. your the one with the theory. surely you have evidence?

it appears that your theory is that the media is sensationalizing gun violence but not knife violence. Really? Keep in mind the numbers above (i.e. lots of homicides). Further, go to this handy piece of www

homicides in chicago so far this year. There have been a whopping 14 homicides in chicago this year (It's fucking jan 10 people. toronto is the same size, 70 or so homicides a year). Most by gunshot. I looked at two stories and one had 8 people wounded and the other 10 (along with the homicide). Pretty damn newsworthy for the "gun hating liberal media", no? That shit would be frontpage story in Canada. But, as far as I can tell, very little national attention, if any. I hate guns. Where is that damn liberal media when you need it?

Further reading on same page. Two teens shot and killed, a number of others wounded on New years day. Seems to be missed by the national "liberal" media. What do you expect? They're liberals and their union probably got them new years day off! we know if they weren't at home smoking pot and collecting their welfare cheques they'd be all over this story. that's the best explanation i think, given the liberal medias' tendency to sensationalize gun violence. lazy fuckers.

I love liberal media conspiracies. makes me giggle.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 1:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

juniper wrote:
I love liberal media conspiracies. makes me giggle.
lol

I lol when people don't recognize it. Most often they are Liberal-progressive-democrat-leftists.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 2:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
juniper wrote:
I love liberal media conspiracies. makes me giggle.
lol

I lol when people don't recognize it. Most often they are Liberal-progressive-democrat-leftists.


funny that. I guess we will have to rely on evidence rather than simple assertions.

democrat the party of bank bailouts? hardly a leftist ideal.

more to the point, I really don't think he has a leg to stand on re the liberal media and guns.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 5:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

juniper wrote:
BoneKracker wrote:
juniper wrote:
I think you need a splash of cold water. you have 15,000 or so homicides a year, which puts it at around 40 a day. many go unreported in the national news.

not every shooting is reported in the national media. Usually, it's when 20 kids or so get murdered.

I think you need a boot deep in your desperately rationalizing ass. When somebody does something as shocking and sensational as hurling the dismembered arms of their victim at witnesses, it gets reported. The only possible explanation is that it was deliberately suppressed. Why is a matter of conjecture. I say it's because right now they want guns to be the root of all evil. They're talking about Obama by-passing Congress and using some kind of authoritarian executive privilege to force-feed worse gun restrictions.


I would say a little more evidence would be nice. your the one with the theory. surely you have evidence?

it appears that your theory is that the media is sensationalizing gun violence but not knife violence. Really? Keep in mind the numbers above (i.e. lots of homicides). Further, go to this handy piece of www

homicides in chicago so far this year. There have been a whopping 14 homicides in chicago this year (It's fucking jan 10 people. toronto is the same size, 70 or so homicides a year). Most by gunshot. I looked at two stories and one had 8 people wounded and the other 10 (along with the homicide). Pretty damn newsworthy for the "gun hating liberal media", no? That shit would be frontpage story in Canada. But, as far as I can tell, very little national attention, if any. I hate guns. Where is that damn liberal media when you need it?

Further reading on same page. Two teens shot and killed, a number of others wounded on New years day. Seems to be missed by the national "liberal" media. What do you expect? They're liberals and their union probably got them new years day off! we know if they weren't at home smoking pot and collecting their welfare cheques they'd be all over this story. that's the best explanation i think, given the liberal medias' tendency to sensationalize gun violence. lazy fuckers.

I love liberal media conspiracies. makes me giggle.

Anectodal evidence. Begging the question. Appeal to ridicule. Fail. Why are you always so full of logical fallacies on this issue. It's all that ever comes out of your mouth about this, and yet you continue to argue your invalid position.

Chicago has a huge problem with ethnic gang violence. That's their problem, not guns. You're begging the question. Also, why are we suddenly talking about Chicago, when the subject is national policy? Anecdotal evidence anyone? Besides, the New Year's Day shooting was on the National News (at least the one I watch). And, again, why this focus solely on homicide when it's jut the tip of a much larger iceberg of violent crime? Why? Because the homicide picture makes it look like guns are the problem (because guns are more lethal)?

Why do you feel is is so important to distract from the real issues and instead blame guns? Is it because spotlighting those issues points out failures of supposedly "progressive" social policy (such as, just for example, the fact that African Americans on welfare, who are still living in inner city ghettos a century and a half after emancipation, are disproportionately involved in firearm homicides, as are Hispanic immigrants and their 1st generation descendants)? Is that why it's so important to avoid talking about the real issues, and instead focus on the guns in America (of which something like 0.005% are ever used to commit a crime)?

It's time to focus on the real issues. We've got 200 to 300 million guns here, and the percentage involved in these homicides is effectively negligent. They are obviously not the driving factor. The problem is violence and the people who are committing it. The root causes must be identified and addressed. This is just a convenient excuse to use general public ignorance as a populist mechanism to disarm the public.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 9:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:

Anectodal evidence. Begging the question. Appeal to ridicule. Fail. Why are you always so full of logical fallacies on this issue. It's all that ever comes out of your mouth about this, and yet you continue to argue your invalid position.


Oh. I love that. You come up with one guy flinging limbs with a knife and call me out for anecdotal evidence. :lol:

Quote:

Chicago has a huge problem with ethnic gang violence. That's their problem, not guns. You're begging the question. Also, why are we suddenly talking about Chicago, when the subject is national policy? Anecdotal evidence anyone? Besides, the New Year's Day shooting was on the National News (at least the one I watch). And, again, why this focus solely on homicide when it's jut the tip of a much larger iceberg of violent crime? Why? Because the homicide picture makes it look like guns are the problem (because guns are more lethal)?


Wasn't my point. My point was that your liberal media conspiracy re sensationalizing gun violence is a steaming pile of doo doo. That is, for your lone piece of evidence (let's give it a name, say anecdote), I found a number of gun homicides that weren't given national attention. Put up your google results please. I googled a bunch (especially the ones many people were injured) and nothing came up. Not even beloved fox (but they are pro gun).

Quote:

Why do you feel is is so important to distract from the real issues and instead blame guns? Is it because spotlighting those issues points out failures of supposedly "progressive" social policy (such as, just for example, the fact that African Americans on welfare, who are still living in inner city ghettos a century and a half after emancipation, are disproportionately involved in firearm homicides, as are Hispanic immigrants and their 1st generation descendants)? Is that why it's so important to avoid talking about the real issues, and instead focus on the guns in America (of which something like 0.005% are ever used to commit a crime)?


AA have been emancipated for 120 years, or 4-5 generations. The civil rights movement only happened one generation ago. There are people alive today who lived in a time when AA weren't allowed to attend some state universities. So, there is that. But I agree with you. There are all sorts of issues that need discussing, and I never said guns are the answer to the violence. Just that they are a major ingredient.

But the hispanic thing is weird. Why do immigrants to your country partake in so much violence? Good question, no? But I don't think we should hide from these hard questions and we should certainly look at the package.

Quote:
It's time to focus on the real issues. We've got 200 to 300 million guns here, and the percentage involved in these homicides is effectively negligent. They are obviously not the driving factor. The problem is violence and the people who are committing it. The root causes must be identified and addressed. This is just a convenient excuse to use general public ignorance as a populist mechanism to disarm the public.


flooding a system with guns won't mean that most are used for homicides.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 2:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I didn't see any people chucking dismembered arms at bystanders in your examples of unreported gun violence. Perhaps you have missed the point entirely. :?
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 3:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

juniper wrote:
I guess we will have to rely on evidence
Up until now you haven't been? Is Fox the only biased news agency out there?
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 4:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-20975608

Californian teacher talks student out of school shooting
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 10:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
I didn't see any people chucking dismembered arms at bystanders in your examples of unreported gun violence. Perhaps you have missed the point entirely. :?


hmmm. i can't make it any clearer.

you: thesis, one piece of evidence.
me: 5 pieces, counter evidence.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 10:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
juniper wrote:
I guess we will have to rely on evidence
Up until now you haven't been? Is Fox the only biased news agency out there?


he made an assertion with one piece of evidence. sorry, as BK so wisely pointed out, anecdote != evidence (except for existence claims).
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