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energyman76b
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 4:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

erm67 wrote:
energyman76b wrote:
Muso wrote:
tylerwylie wrote:
But single payer works and stuff.


Indeed. All of the 20th century welfare state concepts are in perfect fiscal shape!


lets see - Germany's unemployment agency had a fat surplus. Germany's health insurances had fat surplusses.... you don't know shit but feel oblieged to post your crap. I am amazed.

Yes but in Germany you pay more than in Italy (and very likely portugal) as a worker for health care, if that did not change in the last 5 years. I think I remember that I was paying 13% in Berlin some years ago, in Italy is less but health insurance (singular since the various kassen were fused into one big agency last year) are slightly in the red...


Yeah, 100% of the EU (eurozone) citizens + regular workers fully covered by health insurance is a nice target I think....

In Italy France and Spain it is already like that (100%) and very few are not covered in Germany (~8%)...

BTW since the German healthcare system is doing so well wouldnt be a ethically correct idea to cover 100% of the population?


those 8 percent are persons who are 'self employed' and earn so much they are past a certain threshold. If you are rich enough to pay for everything yourself, you are not forced.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 5:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

aCOSwt wrote:

Of course I won't agree with anything, because I... just don't care. :P
Well... I mean that when I posted, I did not initially care about this precisely.

Ancora un'altra vittima del pensiero debole.


Vattimo is just an linky extremist, I remember a few lesson with him at the Turin University (during my botched attempt at studying philosophy), with pensiero debole he just means the good old times of Marx and Hitler are gone and everybody is more reasonable now ... (weak in his opinion).

aCOSwt wrote:

When Eco wrote that if anyone want some sentence to be considered carrying whatever valuable philosophical content, this sentence had to be written in German, I thought he was just joking.
I realize that he was correct.

Only a few things are more German than Ethik ...

aCOSwt wrote:

OK then erm67 : If you get a car (now or in the future), is (will) it be equipped with a GPS ?


At the moment I prefer to use my Android 4 smartphone with google maps as a navigator, and definitely I am not going to equip my next car with a (gps) satellite ....

BTW for a series of coincidences I have 3 navi on board at the moment :-) (and use them only for speed limits a and speed radars)
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 7:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
The idea is both morally and ethically abhorrent, in my opinion, and a crime against humanity. However, I can understand how most people, especially socialists, would feel that it's morally necessary and mistakenly believe that it's ethically sound.


Well try to see the positive sides, after oblablacare is in place the USA can finally sign all chapters of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (I know probably unethical as well)
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 8:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

erm67 wrote:
At the moment I prefer to use my Android 4 smartphone with google maps as a navigator, and definitely I am not going to equip my next car with a (gps) satellite ....

Grrreat ! I think that we can now progress faster :
So you understand the difference between the GPS and what most of the minus habens (including vendors) name GPS which is in fact an automotive navigation system.

Well then ethics is to morale no more no less than what the GPS is to an ANS.

The GPS receiver questions the satellites in order to obtain some abstract set of coordinates in an abstract frame of reference. This is absolutely meaningless !
Where are you ? Well, I mean are you in Paris or in Roma ? Cannot tell ! Where is the nearest pub ? Cannot tell ! Are you in the good direction to come back home ? Cannot tell !

From this data, the ANS will then... judge ! You are in Roma, the nearest pub is 6 Via Degli Specchi and you are definitely not in the good direction to come back home !

Ethics questions ! Morale is THE system of judgment !

In order to judge, the abstract raw data needs to be mapped on a ma 8O :roll: needs to be mapped on some representation of the world that is exactly to say to be mapped on an... idea !


OK ! I get enough for tonight, all the words having been clearly defined, i leave you with your ethically correct idea now, I expect, opened to a new understanding.

Oh... I was forgetting :
erm67 wrote:
Vattimo is just an linky extremist, I remember a few lesson with him at the Turin University (during my botched attempt at studying philosophy), with pensiero debole he just means the good old times of Marx and Hitler are gone and everybody is more reasonable now ... (weak in his opinion).

I feel somehow honored to speak with a Vattimo's student...
even if...
it obviously appears from what I quoted that...
He just failed when asking you to suspend your judgment... :twisted:
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 9:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

aCOSwt wrote:

The GPS receiver questions the satellites in order to obtain some abstract set of coordinates in an abstract frame of reference. This is absolutely meaningless !
Where are you ? Well, I mean are you in Paris or in Roma ? Cannot tell ! Where is the nearest pub ? Cannot tell ! Are you in the good direction to come back home ? Cannot tell !

From this data, the ANS will then... judge ! You are in Roma, the nearest pub is 6 Via Degli Specchi and you are definitely not in the good direction to come back home !

Ethics questions ! Morale is THE system of judgment !

In order to judge, the abstract raw data needs to be mapped on a ma 8O :roll: needs to be mapped on some representation of the world that is exactly to say to be mapped on an... idea !


erm67 wrote:
moral is pretty subjective, ethic is method applied to moral.


From what I can judge there is a 1:1 mapping between what we are arguing about :-) And mapping is a method.

Morality is not an absolute value ....


aCOSwt wrote:

OK ! I get enough for tonight, all the words having been clearly defined, i leave you with your ethically correct idea now, I expect, opened to a new understanding.


Well no, still it is an ethically good idea, whatever is your morality it is possible to map universal health care to good.
aCOSwt wrote:

Oh... I was forgetting :
erm67 wrote:
Vattimo is just an linky extremist, I remember a few lesson with him at the Turin University (during my botched attempt at studying philosophy), with pensiero debole he just means the good old times of Marx and Hitler are gone and everybody is more reasonable now ... (weak in his opinion).

I feel somehow honored to speak with a Vattimo's student...

on the paper only, I wasted most of the time doing other things (a daughter included) ....
aCOSwt wrote:

even if...
it obviously appears from what I quoted that...
He just failed when asking you to suspend your judgment... :twisted:

Well the scientific method can't be applied if you are part of the experiment :-)

That is partly why it is difficult to map universal health care to good if it's you that have to pay for that ....

We are both born in countries where our parents were already born in a system that provided universal health care, it is hard to tell from our point of view as well.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 9:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

erm67 wrote:
BoneKracker wrote:
The idea is both morally and ethically abhorrent, in my opinion, and a crime against humanity. However, I can understand how most people, especially socialists, would feel that it's morally necessary and mistakenly believe that it's ethically sound.


Well try to see the positive sides, after oblablacare is in place the USA can finally sign all chapters of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (I know probably unethical as well)

It's a socialist document. Begging the question is not an effective argument; it's a logical fallacy.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 10:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
erm67 wrote:
BoneKracker wrote:
The idea is both morally and ethically abhorrent, in my opinion, and a crime against humanity. However, I can understand how most people, especially socialists, would feel that it's morally necessary and mistakenly believe that it's ethically sound.


Well try to see the positive sides, after oblablacare is in place the USA can finally sign all chapters of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (I know probably unethical as well)

It's a socialist document. Begging the question is not an effective argument; it's a logical fallacy.


Well why not, once you are paying for universal health care why not sign? I bet Obama will get another Nobel price for that :-)
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

erm67 wrote:
BoneKracker wrote:
erm67 wrote:
BoneKracker wrote:
The idea is both morally and ethically abhorrent, in my opinion, and a crime against humanity. However, I can understand how most people, especially socialists, would feel that it's morally necessary and mistakenly believe that it's ethically sound.


Well try to see the positive sides, after oblablacare is in place the USA can finally sign all chapters of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (I know probably unethical as well)

It's a socialist document. Begging the question is not an effective argument; it's a logical fallacy.


Well why not, once you are paying for universal health care why not sign? I bet Obama will get another Nobel price for that :-)

As I said, you Europeans, and most Americans for that matter, don't understand what Obamacare is. To begin with, it's not universal healthcare.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:

As I said, you Europeans, and most Americans for that matter, don't understand what Obamacare is. To begin with, it's not universal healthcare.


So enlighten us please and explain why it is not universal health care (or close enough to considered such, nowhere is really 100% universal) ....

Which categories are not insured?
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 1:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

erm67 wrote:
BoneKracker wrote:

As I said, you Europeans, and most Americans for that matter, don't understand what Obamacare is. To begin with, it's not universal healthcare.


So enlighten us please and explain why it is not universal health care (or close enough to considered such, nowhere is really 100% universal) ....

Which categories are not insured?

Obamacare will actually only marginally reduce the percentage of people without health insurance. These have been the effects thus far:
Quote:
The U.S. Census recently announced that the number of Americans without health insurance in 2011 fell for the first time in three years, to 48.6 million. That’s a decrease of 1.3 million from the 2010 figure.

That's out of a population of 312 million. The number of Americans enrolled in Medicaide (taxpayer-funded health insurance for the poor) has risen from 48.5 million to 50.8 million. Over the long term, Obamacare is expected to only reduce the proportion of uninsured by a few percentage points (e.g., seven percentage points, from 16% to 9%) at enormous cost, in terms of not only increased taxes, but general rationing of health care and increased Federal authoritarianism.

In essence, the Obama Administration was unable to get what it wanted, so it settled for paying a similar amount for nothing more than getting a foot in the door, in hopes of later using that as points of leverage to forcibly expand the program. The cost inefficiency of this strategy is enormous, and the consequences are likely to be a dramatic increase in the cost of health care, which they intend to offset with rationing.

In short, it's nothing like the well-designed, homogeneous programs other countries have; it's a giant trillion-dollar cluster-fuck. I, who am generally opposed to universal healthcare at the Federal level (would prefer complete governmental disinvolvement at the Federal level with each state taking on the problem in its own way), would eagerly vote in favor of it as a preferable alternative to Obamacare.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 2:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
Over the long term, Obamacare is expected to only reduce the proportion of uninsured by a few percentage points (e.g., seven percentage points, from 16% to 9%) at enormous cost, in terms of not only increased taxes, but general rationing of health care and increased Federal authoritarianism.


Ooops, thanks to Germany currently >90% insured is considered Universal Health Care ........

So it will fit the parameters :-) 91% is Universal Health Care according to the current params.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 3:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

erm67 wrote:
BoneKracker wrote:
Over the long term, Obamacare is expected to only reduce the proportion of uninsured by a few percentage points (e.g., seven percentage points, from 16% to 9%) at enormous cost, in terms of not only increased taxes, but general rationing of health care and increased Federal authoritarianism.


Ooops, thanks to Germany currently >90% insured is considered Universal Health Care ........

So it will fit the parameters :-) 91% is Universal Health Care according to the current params.

So we need to have 90.x% of our population insured instead of 83% to be "civilized" like Europe? :roll:

But wait. You guys don't have what you're telling us we need, so you're not civilized either. Do you think British, French, Belgians and Germans should be paying for the health care of Bulgarians, Romanians and Moldovans, for the sake of increasing the overall EU healthcare coverage rate by a few percentage points, even if means forcing individuals across Europe to purchase healthcare insurance through the EU government and have the EU government gain authority over individual lifestyles, and reducing health care in your state to pay for health care in Romania and Bulgaria? Because, that's what you're talking about.

If we handled this at the state level, then we'd be similar to what Europe is doing.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 5:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:

So we need to have 90.x% of our population insured instead of 83% to be "civilized" like Europe? :roll:


Well, you know 'pensiero debole' is mainstream now, the good all times of strong ideas, like Universal Healthcare for all people, are gone we settle now for lesser goals like >90% insured. But most go for higher %

BoneKracker wrote:

But wait. You guys don't have what you're telling us we need, so you're not civilized either. Do you think British, French, Belgians and Germans should be paying for the health care of Bulgarians, Romanians and Moldovans, for the sake of increasing the overall EU healthcare coverage rate by a few percentage points, even if means forcing individuals across Europe to purchase healthcare insurance through the EU government and have the EU government gain authority over individual lifestyles, and reducing health care in your state to pay for health care in Romania and Bulgaria? Because, that's what you're talking about.

If we handled this at the state level, then we'd be similar to what Europe is doing.


Well, you know, the EU is still not fully defined but we are working on that as well ...... and nobody is asking you to do anything, we're just happy that you do :-)

For the moment we just get those cards:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Carte_Europ%C3%A9enne_d%27Assurance_Maladie_France.jpg

Latest report on EU healthcare: linky

Quote:
Two European countries
do not yet have universal health coverage. In Cyprus, an
estimated 83% of the population are entitled to public
health services, although many currently seek medical care
in the private sector and pay out-of-pocket. A new National
Health Insurance System has been proposed to modernise
public health care and extend coverage (Cyprus National
Reform Programme, 2012; Theodorou et al., 2012). In Turkey,
public coverage has increased rapidly since reforms to
implement universal health insurance began in 2003 under
the ten-year Health Transformation Programme (OECD,
2008b; Tatar et al., 2011). The population covered rose from
70% in 2002 to 83% in 2010 and is continuing to move
towards full coverage estimated to be 98% in 2012


Since Turkey is not Europe, only one doesn't have UHC.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 12:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Universal" means universal. I don't see how any entity can claim it has "universal healthcare" unless every single individual has the same entitlement to care.

By the way, I saw some people the other day with picket signs declaring that high-speed internet service is a human right.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 1:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
"Universal" means universal. I don't see how any entity can claim it has "universal healthcare" unless every single individual has the same entitlement to care.
Have you heard of the, wait get ready for this, Partial Zero Emissions Vehicle? It is "fair" to treat labeled people differently, etc. Same mindset. Really, though, I'm pretty sure you know this.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 9:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
BoneKracker wrote:
"Universal" means universal. I don't see how any entity can claim it has "universal healthcare" unless every single individual has the same entitlement to care.
Have you heard of the, wait get ready for this, Partial Zero Emissions Vehicle? It is "fair" to treat labeled people differently, etc. Same mindset. Really, though, I'm pretty sure you know this.

How careless of me. I nearly lapsed into thoughtcrime there. Thank you, Brother.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 10:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
By the way, I saw some people the other day with picket signs declaring that high-speed internet service is a human right.

8O :lol:
Oh wait...
It is logical to expect that the wall of Plato's cave has been carefully maintained and upgraded over time.
I would not be surprised if it were nowadays a display wall...

In which case... these people you mention are indeed correct !
OK, as it used to be, they are still wrong !
But... don't tell that to them ! You've been warned a good bunch of centuries ago.

Oh... and... Of course...
BoneKracker wrote:
"Universal" means universal.

I definitely agree with BK !
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 12:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
"Universal" means universal. I don't see how any entity can claim it has "universal healthcare" unless every single individual has the same entitlement to care.


Well there are a few provisions if less than 100% of the population is insured, every single individual has to have the same entitlement to care but, like in Germany, richer people might not be forced to sign a compulsory health insurance and can choose to pay on-the-go and have the means to do so. (pretty unethical IMHO). Health insurances must accept everybody equally and so on. If you search there has been a debate on the internet regarding oblablacare and wether it can currently be categorized as a form near-universal health care, and apparently it does. Wikipedia already fixed the list.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 1:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@BK: lol
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 5:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As one might expect, Wikipdedia often serves as an extension of the Ministry of Truth, particularly on current events, where the entered information has not stood the test of review over time.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 6:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
@BK: lol

They should call it "More or Less Universal Healthy Care". :lol:

If it was orange juice or children's pajamas, that kind of naming wouldn't be tolerated (Sunny D is "Orange-Flavored Breakfast Drink" and Roos are "Flame Retardant", not "Fire Proof"). But we let our politicians get away with calling something "Universal" that only applies to eight or nine out of ten people? Sounds like bullshit to me.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 12:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
pjp wrote:
@BK: lol

They should call it "More or Less Universal Healthy Care". :lol:

If it was orange juice or children's pajamas, that kind of naming wouldn't be tolerated (Sunny D is "Orange-Flavored Breakfast Drink" and Roos are "Flame Retardant", not "Fire Proof"). But we let our politicians get away with calling something "Universal" that only applies to eight or nine out of ten people? Sounds like bullshit to me.


Don't be distracted from your main goal (pay less taxes) by those tiny details otherwise you risk that your politicians take you seriously and go after really universal health care and you end up paying even more taxes :-)

Just agree, smile and be proud of being finally civilized ...
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 2:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

:lol:

My "main goal" isn't to pay less taxes; I'm more interested in resisting the erosion of individual rights by authoritarian collectivism, who are working hard and effectively to take us all to Orwellian Hell.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 3:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

erm67 wrote:
Just agree, smile and be proud of being finally civilized ...
It isn't civilized. In fact, I'd call mob mentality rather uncivilized.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 8:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
:lol:

My "main goal" isn't to pay less taxes; I'm more interested in resisting the erosion of individual rights by authoritarian collectivism, who are working hard and effectively to take us all to Orwellian Hell.


Universal healthcare funded by compulsory taxation = authoritarian collectivism
But how does this erode the individual rights? only forcing them to pay taxes, since you can still refuse healthcare.
So apparently you are not against universal health care but all boils down to the detail of taxation ..... still pay less taxes appears to be the main goal.
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