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erm67
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 1:56 am    Post subject: [LOLGOV] Portugal Reply with quote

I cannot find this in english news, but apparently the portugese president in his end of year message to the nation recommended the citizens not to fall sick in this year. The government owes a few billion € to the pharma industry already, and he thinks it is the duty of every citizen to prevent every form of sickness that could further increase the public debt.


Apparently it is not a joke :-) Any portuguese speaker around?
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 5:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

But single payer works and stuff.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 6:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

tylerwylie wrote:
But single payer works and stuff.


Indeed. All of the 20th century welfare state concepts are in perfect fiscal shape!
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 8:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

tylerwylie wrote:
But single payer works and stuff.


The Bismark model is still widespread, and further spreading in the world :-) Less than 150y to cross the pound .... (who pays is a detail).

And portugal has a mixed model based on competing private institutions and a coparticipation in the costs, it is not a single-payer model.

The problem in Portugal is that wages are still lower than in the rest of the EU while health care costs more or less like in the other country so even if the % pro-capita spent by the government is the same, it is a lot less in absolute terms (if compared to the other EU countries).
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 11:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

erm67 wrote:
The problem in Portugal is that wages are still lower than in the rest of the EU while health care costs more or less like in the other country so even if the % pro-capita spent by the government is the same, it is a lot less in absolute terms (if compared to the other EU countries).
So institute a minimum wage so that the Portugese can have more money and stuff and things.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 11:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

tylerwylie wrote:
erm67 wrote:
The problem in Portugal is that wages are still lower than in the rest of the EU while health care costs more or less like in the other country so even if the % pro-capita spent by the government is the same, it is a lot less in absolute terms (if compared to the other EU countries).
So institute a minimum wage so that the Portugese can have more money and stuff and things.


or they can just spend double and get american health care rates.
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erm67
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 11:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

tylerwylie wrote:
erm67 wrote:
The problem in Portugal is that wages are still lower than in the rest of the EU while health care costs more or less like in the other country so even if the % pro-capita spent by the government is the same, it is a lot less in absolute terms (if compared to the other EU countries).
So institute a minimum wage so that the Portugese can have more money and stuff and things.


EU countries with fixed minimum wage for all workers are doing really bad, Portugal has a variable model of minimum wages, (tripartism) IIRC.
So better our flexible minimum wage system. And well eventually it will be fixed in Portugal, once they start to get cheap loans from the ESF (or what is called now) and the interest of their public debt has gone down.
I forgot, 1.1 million people in portugal has no access to the subsidized health care system (beside public hospitals and have to buy all medecines)...... :-) We are not doing so bad in Italy :-) 100% citizens and regular immigrants are fully covered, and even irregulars have free access to public hospitals.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 3:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

erm67 wrote:
tylerwylie wrote:
But single payer works and stuff.


The Bismark model is still widespread, and further spreading in the world :-) Less than 150y to cross the pound .... (who pays is a detail).
Spreads like cancer.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 4:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
erm67 wrote:
tylerwylie wrote:
But single payer works and stuff.


The Bismark model is still widespread, and further spreading in the world :-) Less than 150y to cross the pound .... (who pays is a detail).
Spreads like cancer.


I was just trying to give you a glimpse into the future (and the past) of Oblablacare :-)
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 5:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks. The more awake among us pretty much know what it will bring, if not the exact nuances.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 5:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Muso wrote:
tylerwylie wrote:
But single payer works and stuff.


Indeed. All of the 20th century welfare state concepts are in perfect fiscal shape!


lets see - Germany's unemployment agency had a fat surplus. Germany's health insurances had fat surplusses.... you don't know shit but feel oblieged to post your crap. I am amazed.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 9:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

energyman76b wrote:
Muso wrote:
tylerwylie wrote:
But single payer works and stuff.


Indeed. All of the 20th century welfare state concepts are in perfect fiscal shape!


lets see - Germany's unemployment agency had a fat surplus. Germany's health insurances had fat surplusses.... you don't know shit but feel oblieged to post your crap. I am amazed.

Yes but in Germany you pay more than in Italy (and very likely portugal) as a worker for health care, if that did not change in the last 5 years. I think I remember that I was paying 13% in Berlin some years ago, in Italy is less but health insurance (singular since the various kassen were fused into one big agency last year) are slightly in the red...


Yeah, 100% of the EU (eurozone) citizens + regular workers fully covered by health insurance is a nice target I think....

In Italy France and Spain it is already like that (100%) and very few are not covered in Germany (~8%)...

BTW since the German healthcare system is doing so well wouldnt be a ethically correct idea to cover 100% of the population?
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 4:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

energyman76b wrote:
Muso wrote:
tylerwylie wrote:
But single payer works and stuff.


Indeed. All of the 20th century welfare state concepts are in perfect fiscal shape!


lets see - Germany's unemployment agency had a fat surplus. Germany's health insurances had fat surplusses.... you don't know shit but feel oblieged to post your crap. I am amazed.

That shows your capitalist system is working. Germany's a hybrid socialist-capitalist system, just like the U.S. It has a different balance of the two, but if you think Germany's present financial health is DUE to its socialist characteristics, you're mistaken. It's IN SPITE of them.

Capitalism brings economic prosperity. Socialism minimizes suffering. Claim that either delivers what the other does and you're deceiving yourself. Furthermore, both have the tendency to violate individual / human rights, and a constant battle must be waged to prevent that and repair the damage that's been done.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 4:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Germany's problems are almost exclusively caused by saving a couple of banks.
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Libertardian denial of reality is wholly unimpressive and unconvincing, and simply serves to demonstrate what a bunch of delusional fools they all are.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 12:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

saving banks from Basel III?

http://wallstcheatsheet.com/stocks/what-fears-do-banks-have-with-basel-iii.html/
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 1:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

erm67 wrote:
a ethically correct idea

:?
Do you mean moral ?
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 3:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

He's talking about morality, even though he'd say he was talking about ethics, if he knew the difference.

Morality is about what's right and wrong, and contrary to the understanding of the vast majority, it's rather arbitrary (in most cases based on what we have been conditioned by society to view as right and wrong). Ethics, on the other hand, are about rationality. There is a blurring or intersection in that some moral codes are based on ethics (e.g., utilitarianism).

But utilitarianism is abused and distorted more often than understood and applied objectively. For example, a typical drone in a socialistic society has been thoroughly programmed by his society to believe "his" morals (which he typically believes to be "common sense" and feels he has arrived at by his own thinking) are based on ethics, when in fact, they're based on arbitrary choices made by authorities on behalf of Das Kollective and not supported by intellectually honest ethical reasoning (e.g., the typical contortion of many situations into purportedly utilitarian scenarios in which the alleged good of the many justifies harm to a few, failing to recognize the harm actually being done to the many in the process).

If more people understood the difference, we'd have a lot more free thinkers, but one must be a free thinker to understand the difference.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 4:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

energyman76b wrote:
Germany's problems are almost exclusively caused by saving a couple of banks.

And all the inferior people generally South of your latitude.

There's Germany, Switzerland, Belgium, the Netherlands, England, Denmark, Norway, Sweden, and Finland (plus Belgium, Leichtenstein, Luxembourg), and they're all generally squared-away people and countries, and they're a definable geographic region and substantially Germanic/Nordic. Then you've got the rest of Europe, and they're all fucked up like soup sandwiches. The implications are somewhat disturbing but undeniable.

The EU should be abandoned, and you should form a "Northern European Alliance". Better yet, you could include Canada, and call it the "Union of North Atlantic States" or something. Wales, Ireland, Scotland, Iceland, and Greenland would be somewhat embarrassingly left out, but hey, you gotta do what you gotta do (or maybe you could include them, on the basis of territorial integrity, provided they get their shit together and stop eating disgusting things better suited for use as fish bait).
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 8:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

aCOSwt wrote:
erm67 wrote:
a ethically correct idea

:?
Do you mean moral ?


wikipedia wrote:
Ethics, also known as moral philosophy, is a branch of philosophy that involves systematizing, defending, and recommending concepts of right and wrong conduct.[1] The term comes from the Greek word ethos, which means "character".


I mean ethically .... moral is implied by the term ethic as you can see from the definition.

BoneKracker wrote:
He's talking about morality, even though he'd say he was talking about ethics, if he knew the difference.


Since you know so well the meaning of ethic go fix the wikipedia, and tell merriam webster as well ..... :-)

And utilitarianism is just one of the possible ethics, a subset.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 9:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

erm67 wrote:
aCOSwt wrote:
erm67 wrote:
a ethically correct idea

:?
Do you mean moral ?


wikipedia wrote:
Ethics, also known as moral philosophy, is a branch of philosophy that involves systematizing, defending, and recommending concepts of right and wrong conduct.[1] The term comes from the Greek word ethos, which means "character".


I mean ethically .... moral is implied by the term ethic as you can see from the definition.

Ha ! disgraziato ! mascalzone ! (3rd meaning given in the wikitionary not meant !)
Please read what I quoted and think by yourself ! (rather than searching, and in vain, if you exclusive or me is correct)
Wikipedia won't be of any help in that process.

BTW, I quoted a sequence of 4 words !
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 10:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

aCOSwt wrote:
erm67 wrote:
aCOSwt wrote:
erm67 wrote:
a ethically correct idea

:?
Do you mean moral ?


wikipedia wrote:
Ethics, also known as moral philosophy, is a branch of philosophy that involves systematizing, defending, and recommending concepts of right and wrong conduct.[1] The term comes from the Greek word ethos, which means "character".


I mean ethically .... moral is implied by the term ethic as you can see from the definition.

Ha ! disgraziato ! mascalzone ! (3rd meaning given in the wikitionary not meant !)
Please read what I quoted and think by yourself ! (rather than searching, and in vain, if you exclusive or me is correct)
Wikipedia won't be of any help in that process.

BTW, I quoted a sequence of 4 words !


Ok

I what if I rephrase the four words:

'a ethically correct idea' as

'from a moral philosophical (short: ethical) point of view the idea is correct'

I still prefer the shorter form :-)
You agree the the two sentences are the same :?:

BK is right moral is pretty subjective, ethic is method applied to moral.

What is BK ethic (the method to decide what is moral)?

Pay less taxes?
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 8:56 am    Post subject: Re: [LOLGOV] Portugal Reply with quote

erm67 wrote:
Apparently it is not a joke :-) Any portuguese speaker around?


As far as I can tell, neither the filo-fascist President of the Republic[1] nor the stupid Prime Minister[2] has made such a statement. Alas, I don't consider it unfeasible...

----------
[1] http://www.presidencia.pt/?idc=22&idi=70860
[2] http://www.publico.pt/politica/noticia/mensagem-de-natal-de-pedro-passos-coelho-na-integra-1578564
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 10:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

erm67 wrote:
aCOSwt wrote:
erm67 wrote:
a ethically correct idea

:?
Do you mean moral ?


wikipedia wrote:
Ethics, also known as moral philosophy, is a branch of philosophy that involves systematizing, defending, and recommending concepts of right and wrong conduct.[1] The term comes from the Greek word ethos, which means "character".


I mean ethically .... moral is implied by the term ethic as you can see from the definition.

See? I told you so. :lol:
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 12:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

erm67 wrote:
aCOSwt wrote:
erm67 wrote:
aCOSwt wrote:
erm67 wrote:
a ethically correct idea

:?
Do you mean moral ?


wikipedia wrote:
Ethics, also known as moral philosophy, is a branch of philosophy that involves systematizing, defending, and recommending concepts of right and wrong conduct.[1] The term comes from the Greek word ethos, which means "character".


I mean ethically .... moral is implied by the term ethic as you can see from the definition.

Ha ! disgraziato ! mascalzone ! (3rd meaning given in the wikitionary not meant !)
Please read what I quoted and think by yourself ! (rather than searching, and in vain, if you exclusive or me is correct)
Wikipedia won't be of any help in that process.

BTW, I quoted a sequence of 4 words !


Ok

I what if I rephrase the four words:

'a ethically correct idea' as

'from a moral philosophical (short: ethical) point of view the idea is correct'

I still prefer the shorter form :-)
You agree the the two sentences are the same :?:

Of course I won't agree with anything, because I... just don't care. :P
Well... I mean that when I posted, I did not initially care about this precisely.

Ancora un'altra vittima del pensiero debole.

When Eco wrote that if anyone want some sentence to be considered carrying whatever valuable philosophical content, this sentence had to be written in German, I thought he was just joking.
I realize that he was correct.

OK then erm67 : If you get a car (now or in the future), is (will) it be equipped with a GPS ?
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 2:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The idea is both morally and ethically abhorrent, in my opinion, and a crime against humanity. However, I can understand how most people, especially socialists, would feel that it's morally necessary and mistakenly believe that it's ethically sound.
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