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ulenrich
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 12:31 pm    Post subject: Are you hateboys? Reply with quote

If fanboy-ism is foolish, what is hateboy-ism?
I never get more one sided answeres than here, when I write a sentence about systemd.
(Trolls are those who write such responsive sentences, am I?)

Complex are systems which need all kind of (vertical) integration. I am glad there is now a well documented system(d) infrastructure reaching out to solve this task in a simple, automated and most complete manner.

As a Kde user I would be glad the more complex part (semantic-desktop) would be initialized perfectly well using the user mode of systemd. But this won't happen, because I know Kde-Qt developers try to conquer the world (of non-systemd): Bsd, MsWin, Mac

But in the meantime I can USE flag "-semantic-desktop" which provides a Kde system without nepomuk and strigi running ... I understand Gnome is trying to provide a bug free user experience by utilizing systemd ...

Merry chrismas to all, I'll be back after the holy day.
Isn't this trollish: Foxnews recognized a declaration of war (against chrismas) the naming of a chrismas tree a "holy day tree". (Holidays were the free days to serve religious purpose in the middle ages. One third of the year were holy days when they build the cathedrals)
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Last edited by ulenrich on Sat Dec 08, 2012 12:40 pm; edited 1 time in total
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genstorm
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 12:38 pm    Post subject: Re: Are you hateboys? Reply with quote

ulenrich wrote:
As a Kde user I would be glad the more complex part (semantic-desktop) would be initialized perfectly well using the user mode of systemd. But this won't happen, because I know Kde-Qt developers try to conquer the world (of non-systemd): Bsd, MsWin, Mac

But in the meantime I can USE flag "-semantic-desktop" which provides a Kde system without nepomuk and strigi running ... I understand Gnome is trying to provide a bug free user experience by utilizing systemd ...

:lol: I don't even know what to say there.
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jasn
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 1:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As someone who wouldn't have known the difference, I appreciate the systemd discussion from all sides, as well as the heads up that an upcoming version of Gnome may require it. Since I'm currently using Gnome, (with Cinnamon), as my DE, it appears I will need to consider switching to something else soon. What would be a nice addition to the thread would be more suggestions for environments where systemd will not be present. From this thread I assume non-systemd environments will include at least;

1) KDE

Any others?

Thanks..
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drwook
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 6:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jasn wrote:
As someone who wouldn't have known the difference, I appreciate the systemd discussion from all sides, as well as the heads up that an upcoming version of Gnome may require it. Since I'm currently using Gnome, (with Cinnamon), as my DE, it appears I will need to consider switching to something else soon. What would be a nice addition to the thread would be more suggestions for environments where systemd will not be present. From this thread I assume non-systemd environments will include at least;

1) KDE

Any others?

Thanks..


I'd presume XFCE, enlightenment, fluxbox, openbox are all pretty safe bets.
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krinn
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 10:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would say any except gnome 3+
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steveL
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 11:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ulenrich wrote:
If fanboy-ism is foolish, what is hateboy-ism?

It's not based on hate, ffs. It's based on distrust of the One True Way (which you appear to have drunk the kool-aid for, so it's kinda hard to have a reasoned discussion with you) coupled with years of awful experience with that development team; and it's blatantly obvious to anyone who knows the Unix philosophy, that they don't like it, and see it as unnecessarily restrictive because they do not get it.
Quote:
I never get more one sided answeres than here, when I write a sentence about systemd.

That's because you make nothing but one-sided, fanboi statements that completely ignore the points made to you. I've seen it in several threads, where people have just got fed up of trying to answer your nonsensical claims and assertions that have little basis in fact. Do you even read what you wrote before you push Submit?
Quote:
I think it is told about systemd as a red herring story. This might be the main cause of the red hats most people believe to have seen.

WTF does "red hats people believe to have seen" even mean? Seriously you should preview things, preferably a couple of times before you fire off that latest masterpiece straight from your brain.
Quote:
(Trolls are those who write such responsive sentences, am I?)

If you can't see that the above is trolling, you need help imo. And no, some of the smartest people can be trolls: it has nothing to do with intelligence, and everything to do with attitude. And yes, trolls typically write a great deal of "responsive" sentences in that they respond: they just don't listen to what's being said, and as you do, dismiss any alternative view without even considering its merits, while inviting more responses with dumb questions like that.
Quote:
Complex are systems which need all kind of (vertical) integration. I am glad there is now a well documented system(d) infrastructure reaching out to solve this task in a simple, automated and most complete manner.

"Complex are systems"? I don't quite follow, but if you mean complex systems require vertical integration, you simply do not know what you are talking about.
Learn the history of the systems that you love to use, before you assert that it's all useless.

"Good designs are simple. Idiot boxes are complex. Abstract tends to be simple. Specific tends to be complex. Keep it simple."
Keep your idiot box, thanks.
Quote:
As a Kde user I would be glad the more complex part (semantic-desktop) would be initialized perfectly well using the user mode of systemd. But this won't happen, because I know Kde-Qt developers try to conquer the world (of non-systemd): Bsd, MsWin, Mac

But in the meantime I can USE flag "-semantic-desktop" which provides a Kde system without nepomuk and strigi running ... I understand Gnome is trying to provide a bug free user experience by utilizing systemd ...

I've been running KDE since the 90s and I can tell you the best thing you can do for a KDE install, besides getting rid of semantic-desktop, is also get rid of all the *kit crap that your hero has foisted upon us over his "illustrious" career.

And that's the thing: you were quite happy in another thread to denigrate consolekit as old and from a long time ago. But for the rest of us, it's only been a few years, filled with pain as we struggle with half-baked, ill-conceived and poorly-implemented "solutions" that the "developer" has got bored of (since actually making it work reliably is not interesting). That's the problem with people who get entranced by the "shiny": you have a short-term view of things. Which makes it easy to sell you the next "great thing" in a couple of years, so you're encouraged to think like that. ("I want, I want, must have the latest and greatest, and if it's not the latest it's not 'special' and can't be good by definition, cos only new things are good"..)

And I have nfc why you think systemd can help with semantic-desktop. You really have some strange thought processes, afaict.

As for GNOME, and their direction in the last couple of years. LMAO. Clearly you've got some of your strange thinking from other people.
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hcaulfield57
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 12:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The more I think about it, the more I question what the target demographic is for this software. What is the intended 'end user' for Gnome 3/systemd, as far as I can tell its tablet systems. But does anyone actually use Gnome 3 on a tablet? As far as I'm aware it doesn't even have proper touchscreen support. I see this the same way as the whole Windows 8 move to tablet based UI. "Hey we don't have any hold in the tablet market, lets devote all our resources towards tablets!" Despite the fact that this is likely a fad. It seems like bad business to me.
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Mardok45
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 1:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've been using Gnome 3 for quite some time on both my desktop and netbook.

I understand why people hate Gnome 3, but, from a usability standpoint, I think a lot of the hate is undeserved. I was pretty frustrated as well with the no-taskbar, workspace oriented design for a while. However, after sticking with it for some time, I started to hate the traditional desktop approach.

The way the Gnome 3 designers wanted you to use it is to only keep a couple windows related to the task you're doing in one workspace, and use CTRL+ALT+Up/Down to switch between the workspaces. I always keep my terminal and browser in the first workspace, email/chat/SIP in the second, music in the third, and misc in the fourth.

There's also other nice tidbits like Online Accounts that makes it easy to set up email and chat.

I think the Gnome 3 situation, from a end-user point-of-view, is unfortunate. Switching to Gnome 3 requires a radical change in the way you work, and most people aren't willing to do that.

Gnome 3's design was well-thought out. That's not to say I don't think there aren't stupid UI decisions, and I'm especially not fond of the systemd integration. But other than that, I like it.

BTW, I don't think it's fair to immediately chalk up the systemd integration as corporate lockout. At least not yet. Did they at least give good reasons for integrating Gnome 3.7 with systemd? I'm too lazy to look it up myself.
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Leio
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 11:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't see anything much different from this "logind" requirement compared to previous "hostnamed", "localed" and "timedated" requirements for GNOME 3.4. Yet there was much outspeaking and yelling about GNOME depending on systemd then too.
The world didn't end, and we didn't start to require systemd. Alexandre simply implemented these D-Bus APIs to be provided on a OpenRC system via openrc-settingsd. And now we have a much better hostname, locale and timedate changing support from within GNOME - the previous situation via various hacks and perl based libraries was frankly very bothersome to us maintainers and troublesome to users, while this supposed systemd "requirement" made it much nicer and reliable.

I imagine logind will be similarly implemented in openrc-settingsd or on top of ConsoleKit for those that do not choose to use systemd instead of the default OpenRC. But work on 3.7 is just starting to amp up, now that the gnome team (me excluded) got 3.6 to the official tree, so we shall soon see how we will solve this. I don't think currently any gentoo gnome maintainers use systemd, nor have any plans to require it, so...

Bottom-line, don't assume things. Logind requirement does not necessarily mean systemd requirement. systemd is one of many possible providers of the logind dbus API.
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sporkbox
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2013 5:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leio wrote:
I don't see anything much different from this "logind" requirement compared to previous "hostnamed", "localed" and "timedated" requirements for GNOME 3.4. Yet there was much outspeaking and yelling about GNOME depending on systemd then too.
The world didn't end, and we didn't start to require systemd. Alexandre simply implemented these D-Bus APIs to be provided on a OpenRC system via openrc-settingsd. And now we have a much better hostname, locale and timedate changing support from within GNOME - the previous situation via various hacks and perl based libraries was frankly very bothersome to us maintainers and troublesome to users, while this supposed systemd "requirement" made it much nicer and reliable.

I imagine logind will be similarly implemented in openrc-settingsd or on top of ConsoleKit for those that do not choose to use systemd instead of the default OpenRC. But work on 3.7 is just starting to amp up, now that the gnome team (me excluded) got 3.6 to the official tree, so we shall soon see how we will solve this. I don't think currently any gentoo gnome maintainers use systemd, nor have any plans to require it, so...

Bottom-line, don't assume things. Logind requirement does not necessarily mean systemd requirement. systemd is one of many possible providers of the logind dbus API.


Many "possible" providers? Name another implementation of the dbus API that competes with logind and is actively maintained.
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genstorm
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2013 10:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

@sporkbox: At least Debian is working on it, and Gentoo devs looking at doing the same. (tearing logind out of systemd)
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